Topic: 1974 Honda CB550 Charging problem Killing battery.

[kaptainkid1]

It is wise to come here for help. It is foolish to ignore the help when it is provided.

Merely to enlighten you, TwoTired and Scottly are among the 2 most knowledgeable folks on this entire forum regarding electrical. You may not have known that, but now you do. So, please do yourself an enormous service and follow their advice promptly and fully. I’m certain you’ll discover the source of your issue. 

So I'm not questioning TwoTired or Scottly knowledge of electrical but more inline with the tools and the skill-set I possess. Honestly, I don't have much electrial work experience and really didn't understand the abbreviated terms that Scottly was explaining what to do. So I know how to clean terminals with a wire brush and started where I felt comfortable and tackled the Voltage down test when I learned what it means and how to do it. After getting the results I still didn't know what the numbers meant. So I hope TwoTired and Scottly don't take offense.

[kaptainkid1]

Fuse clips are also inline of the power path.

^^^
Check that the fuse clips are clean. It's a common problem. The 15 amp main fuse is the link between the battery and the ignition switch, and the reg is fed from the ignition switch. The starter switch has nothing to do with the regulator.
I think you owe Danny an apology. You ignored both my first post as well as TwoTired's confirmation. If Lloyd and I agree on something, it's probably true.

So the last thing I cleaned turned out to be the problem. It was the ignition key and connectors. I decided to wire brush the connections and brake cleaner the ignition body inside. Cleaned out the grim after years of dirt. It's finally Charging again yeah!!! Thanks for all the help and I learned alot about the CB550 electrial system.

[kaptainkid1]

Very unlikely to be a stator problem.  Book says the stator should measure 0.35 ohms between yellows.  Common meters usually have that and more resistance just in their meter leads.  So, that must be subtracted out of the actual measurement.   There must be no continuity from the yellows to engine case.

The bar controls are not included in the power flow path from battery to V reg.  The fuse block and keyswitch are.  Cleaning the key does nothing for the internal contacts of the key switch.

Also, there are connectors  mid path between components.  So, if you are only cleaning the source and end points, you have more cleaning to do.  Check the wire diagram in the Honda shop manual.  It depicts the connectors and all the devices in the path between battery and V reg that you need to address.

Cheers,

So the last thing I cleaned turned out to be the problem. It was the ignition key and connectors. I decided to wire brush the connections and brake cleaner the ignition body inside. Cleaned out the grim after years of dirt. It's finally Charging again yeah!!! Thanks for all the help and I learned alot about the CB550 electrial system.

[dave500]

first thing is to disconnect all the connectors on the entire bike and clean them well,before you start chasing your tail.

[RJ CB450]

Dave, That is what was started with if following the discussion  easy to beligerency from the pillion.

Glad you found the problem.  Some peeps unfortunately expect that everybody has decades working on their personal collection of a dozen concourse resto single cammies.

Essentially the regulator is like a flow control valve.  That issue you had was sending essentially a false signal of sorts.  V=I*R, or Voltage is amps times resistance.  As such, an increase in resistance  would be the same in terms of voltage as too much amperage the other aspect remained the same.  Now am curious as to how the regulator works mechanically.  So used to the sealed RR combo, never really played with one like yours.

Hope was a good experience for you.  With vintage bikes, it often can be something small like that, specially with the honda solid electrics of the era.

[scottly]

I don't have much electrial work experience and really didn't understand the abbreviated terms that Scottly was explaining what to do.

What abbreviated terms in my first post on this thread are you referring to?
What is your voltage drop now between the battery plus terminal and the regulator black terminal, after fixing the problem?
PS I still think you owe Danny an apology. 

[scottly]

first thing is to disconnect all the connectors on the entire bike and clean them well,before you start chasing your tail.

No offense Dave, but when trouble-shooting a charging issue, I tend to try to zero in on the problem, and don't give a fat rat's ass if the horn, headlight, taillight, turn signals, etc work.

[RJ CB450]

No offense Dave, but when trouble-shooting a charging issue, I tend to try to zero in on the problem, and don't give a fat rat's ass if the horn, headlight, taillight, turn signals, etc work.

Also all that should be working before you ever go out on the road with a vintage.  If you don't know, gotta check it out.  It is unfortunate, but vital to ensure it is done right.  If not, irrepairable damage or even something that can cause the loss of the whole bike can occur.  In this case, it was an unusual problem that would only be found out of experience.  A general go over, service and refurbishment probably wouldn't have found it outside of a complete teardown :x

[TwoTired]

Some peeps unfortunately expect that everybody has decades working on their personal collection of a dozen concourse resto single cammies.

So, when responding to a question on the forum, what level of education or expertise is considered proper during the address?

I'm used to addressing college level readers.  If I assume that, then I'm accused of talking down to persons in my responses.
If I assume grade school or lower education level, then I'm condescending to readers who wish to dictate the terms of the help being offered freely.

I generally like to help someone resolve their problem by means of them getting enough education to understand the root of their issue.  I'm not much interested in just giving a solution to a specific problem.  Yes, I know some resent that.  But, if they don't wish to learn and just have someone else give them all the answers, I say, too bad.

Perhaps that is just not the "modern" way?

Cheers,

[scottly]

After getting the results I still didn't know what the numbers meant.

When you post the new results as requested, I'll 'splain it to you.

[dave500]

lotta guys get tripped up by dirty connectors,clean every one so its a job well done,its only a half job otherwise,maybe not in this case but by now theres a few repairs/alterations etc in the wiring loom that will fool you if your not savvy,i rarely post replies on electrical topics as its too much of a #$%* fight explaining stuff,id sooner do it and show someone how.

[dave500]

Dave, That is what was started with if following the discussion  easy to beligerency from the pillion.

Glad you found the problem.  Some peeps unfortunately expect that everybody has decades working on their personal collection of a dozen concourse resto single cammies.

Essentially the regulator is like a flow control valve.  That issue you had was sending essentially a false signal of sorts.  V=I*R, or Voltage is amps times resistance.  As such, an increase in resistance  would be the same in terms of voltage as too much amperage the other aspect remained the same.  Now am curious as to how the regulator works mechanically.  So used to the sealed RR combo, never really played with one like yours.
Hope was a good experience for you.  With vintage bikes, it often can be something small like that, specially with the honda solid electrics of the era.

regulators aint variable,theyll switch on and off but fast,the old points type run lo charge through a resistor to prevent over charge,they vary the voltage to the field electro magnet which controls the voltage overall,later electronic regs use transitors to switch even faster and more reliably,thats on generators with an electro magnetic field,permanent magnet generator type regulators more or less just dump excess voltage to ground,you cant mix the two up,the modern reg/reg is in fact two separate circuits in one housing,one rectifies ac voltage to dc the other either adjusts voltage to the field or in the case of permanent magnets sheds the excess.
heres a hybrid ive used for years on my 550,its a permanent magnet rec/reg with a dead reg circuit,the rectifier part is still fine so im using that section combined with a bosch re57 automotive electronic regulator,this charges at idle with the headlight on.

[RJ CB450]

So, when responding to a question on the forum, what level of education or expertise is considered proper during the address?

...

Perhaps that is just not the "modern" way?

Cheers,

The tension in this discussion isnt about the level of address, it was because something was said to be done without the reasons or explaination.  Compare posts.  It was stated that knowledge and experience of electrical systems was limited.  So a bit about what can cause it and how to diagnose.

I find electrical work on old bikes very interesting.  Like a problem solving puzzle.  A wide range of upgrades and finicky problems to learn.  Talking and asking questions is the proper way to learn as well as using reference material.  Trying to do it entirely alone or "just google it" is an easy way to get the incorrect info and cause permanent damage or nor solve the problem.

My oldies are all late 70s, turn of the 80s stuff for wiring.  So in this case, was apparently a reocurring problem I hadnt expected.  But elsewhere peeps opened up with unecessary complex diagnostics and voltage testing without explaining whys and whats.

Please dont take it as confrontational, but it is a new generation, and a new world from 20 years ago.  Motorcycling is becoming much more niche, and getting new blood interested in vintage motorcycles is getting more difficult.  I am in my 30s, but the youngest in our area's CVMG section.  So when peeps come onto the forums needing help with a problem, it is important to understand the person and their skills relevant to the issue.  Help share the quirks and why things are the way they are.

Like with my nighthawk, certain parts are not CB650 and need to know what parts to cross reference, common problems like cracking dogbone fuse links, or plugging pressure relief in the MC.  A whole host of issues that took many problems to solve and deduce.  So when I talk 650s,  I do so knowing that they are things obvious to me now, but difficult to find originally even with knowledge.

[scottly]

The tension in this discussion isnt about the level of address, it was because something was said to be done without the reasons or explaination.

The "tension" in this discussion started when the OP called a member an #$%*.
I started working as an electronics tech in 1978, and then as a technical support engineer. Along the way, I learned when shortcuts could be taken to solve a particular problem, especially when dealing with someone over the phone, with much less experience. I ask specific questions, and depending on the answer, give them the next step. I don't usually explain my reasons for asking each question, as my goal is to solve the problem, in as few steps as possible (and as few words as possible, since I type slowly ).
In this case, the OP's charging system was working, but not at full output. If he had reported a .5 V drop at the black regulator terminal, that would mean the fuse block, ignition switch, and the connections between them are not the issue, and I would have moved on to the next logical step. Since his readings were higher, it means there is no point looking elsewhere until that issue has been resolved.

[RJ CB450]

But these are forums, and vintage bikes.  Not businesses needing to get running.  A person does not get into something over 40 years old and onto forums because they will be late for work if they dont, it is about experience of ownership.

In this case, the OP's charging system was working, but not at full output. If he had reported a .5 V drop at the black regulator terminal, that would mean the fuse block, ignition switch, and the connections between them are not the issue, and I would have moved on to the next logical step. Since his readings were higher, it means there is no point looking elsewhere until that issue has been resolved.

This is what was missing initially in the post.  Multiple test suggestions were given. Some explained why to check it.  "A common charging issue on these bikes is because the signal to the regulator can get corroded resulting in the regulator discharging too much.  Test voltage on X to Y, and if above 0.5v, then there is corrosion somewhere.  Follow the wires from X to Y. Recommend cleaning regardless"

Same info, but clearer and more understandable. But instead, there were multiple easy checks that are general across more bikes, and one more specific one without reasons.  Just "Check this" and that meant our member who sounds like has a fantastic barn find went the understandable routes first and was berated over that decision.  That was the start of the tension.  The words were a reply to a tense situation already created.  Then after, the solution was locked in a lead by the hand answer.  The way info was given meant our owner here really had no choice but to be handheld through unless went and looked for answer elsewhere.  In which case, it would make any attempt at help on your end have no value.

Made the comment about not being "modern?"  In a way... Probably true.  Internet and in general the ways of the world on the whole have changed.  Sometimes the old ways are best left in the past.  As the British motorcycling industry how stubborness worked for them?

The worst part is again,  You have very valuable knowledge and experience, but if the way it is shared drives people off, it will just be lost.  Not sharing the logic of the problem solving makes for terrible mechanics.  It is actually a serious issue.  Modern mechanics are not taught to work things out logically.  They are trained like you shared the info.  Just do ABC, then fix D without any whys.  Result is mechanics can only fix D, and not determine it is E.

Great example is my car.  Had an oil leak.  Not old car.  Usually I can fix it myself, but couldnt get it in the garage to do so.  Like a 1000 dollar repair.  Oil cooler was leaking, so booked in and got parts.  The dealer pissed me off so I just bought the parts to do later.  Turns out that it wasnt the expensive oil cooler, but instead just an Oring which was pretty easy to determine.  But the mechanics are not trained that.  Working on stuff isnt taught as a skilled trade anymore but is quick mass production commercial education which doesnt work for diagnosing old vehicles.

Reasoning needs to be shared.  Help the peeps to learn how to wrench on by explaining what and why they are doing something.  We dont live forever and if we dont pass it on, the information we know wont last either.