Topic: advice on battery selection...

[Sparco195]

YES i have used the search bar for about 5 days now and have only been getting old forums that seem out of date to the technology available today! so far nothing is really giving me a straight answer.

in short the the very infamous question, lithium ion, vs. AGM...

backstory: rebuilt the engine over the winter, fired it up for the first time a few weeks ago and it runs awesome! got to put around 15-20 miles on it so far since i dont have a headlight or taillight at the moment, that's all i can really "legally" ride...

besides the wiring being pretty much outdated, its ready for the road. the next step on my list IS to redo all the wiring and add/relocate new start button, run switch, etc.

my plans for the bike is gonna be a pretty much stripped down cafe build, battery mounted under the seat.   I am planning on only running head light and LED tail/brake light for now, while keeping the starter on the bike.   I dont plan on using it as a daily driver, more of just a weekend and a few days of riding to work a week.

I am also running a DYNA 2000 electronic ignition.

I ordered a Oregon motorcycle parts Reg/Rec with the lower voltage setting to accommodate lithium batteries, but since everybody on this forum in general seems to be completely contrary to lithium batteries in these bikes i dont know what to do.

I like the idea of a very light battery, as well as the cranking power and size, but what i need help with is; will an 8 cell do me just fine, or do i need maybe a 12 cell? having a middle ground between capacity and overall size is pretty important, also reliability.

on the contrary i have seen AGM batteries that are almost the size of a medium (8cell?) lithium battery that would do just fine for size at 1/4th of the price. would the smallest AGM battery suit my needs?

what are some thoughts?

 

[calj737]

Only benefits of LiFe versus AGM is size and orientation. Both need to have sufficient AmpHour ratings to support running the bike. Stock rating is 12 AmpHours.

Now, depending upon how you ride you can use an 8 Cell. This will limit you on the electric START (can use, but not repeatedly if the bike doesn't fire) so bear that in mind. The Dyna 2000 won't be a significantly greater draw, but their coils might be. Especially if you mistakenly use the 3.0 Ohm units.

In addition to headlight, tail and brake, you also need OIL and NEU idiot lights. Indicators don't hurt your electrical draw, so be smart and install some on the bike, LED type for size and brightness.

With your re-wire, make good solid connections to ground, on bare metal, solid weather-proof inline connections, and quality wire and connectors. Move the headlight (and possible indicator) grounds from the headlight bucket back to the frame behind the steering neck. This keeps the current out of the steering bearings, prolonging their life.

[Sparco195]

i plan on using the electric start on morning starts where its a little colder out. after being warm it starts first kick every time.

well turns out I do actually have the 3.0 Ohm coils on my bike...do they just drink a lot of juice?

An Oil light is on my list, however the neutral switch on mine broke in half so it no longer works, might have to make one myself or something.

[Bankerdanny]

3ohm coils are a much bigger draw on the system.

[uksparky]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,.... 

[TwoTired]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two Scorpion AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

[uksparky]

My battery started to  failed after 11 months,  that was two months ago..got it replaced on the last day of the warrantee. You don't have to return the old battery, just pay the $12 postage...just answer a few questions .. Batterys are not like they used to be years ago, now its the Chinese .......  so when it comes close to my 12 months I will give it a cold starter cranking test, any doubt I will get it replaced
..

[scottly]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

[TwoTired]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

[calj737]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

[TwoTired]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

I don't disdain the Shorai, Cal.  I actually have one that still works quite well, in my RC equipment.  I just don't use it in the SOHC4, since I have yet to find or make a protection circuit for it.  I don't want it damaged by excessive drain.

Cheers,

[calj737]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

I don't disdain the Shorai, Cal.  I actually have one that still works quite well, in my RC equipment.  I just don't use it in the SOHC4, since I have yet to find or make a protection circuit for it.  I don't want it damaged by excessive drain.

Cheers,

Only pulling your leg, TT. I know you’re a man of science and recognize where certain technologies have their best application. 

[TwoTired]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

I don't disdain the Shorai, Cal.  I actually have one that still works quite well, in my RC equipment.  I just don't use it in the SOHC4, since I have yet to find or make a protection circuit for it.  I don't want it damaged by excessive drain.

Cheers,

Only pulling your leg, TT. I know you’re a man of science and recognize where certain technologies have their best application. 

I get it Cal.  I'm just finding excuses not to go out and load the trailer, in hopefully my last moving load to AZ.

Once more, into the breech....

Cheers,

[calj737]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

I don't disdain the Shorai, Cal.  I actually have one that still works quite well, in my RC equipment.  I just don't use it in the SOHC4, since I have yet to find or make a protection circuit for it.  I don't want it damaged by excessive drain.

Cheers,

Only pulling your leg, TT. I know you’re a man of science and recognize where certain technologies have their best application. 

I get it Cal.  I'm just finding excuses not to go out and load the trailer, in hopefully my last moving load to AZ.

Once more, into the breech....

Cheers,

The world doesn’t like quitters, Lloyd. I’d think with the social climate in your prior state, you’d be totally motivated to move regardless of the effort! Not “Once more into the breech...” but, “Last time, hurrah!!!”

[TwoTired]

BatteryStuff.com  SYT12C AGM,....

...Two shorai AGM batteries from them Failed one year after purchase in my application.   ...  FYI

I don't believe Shorai makes AGM, only LiFe??

You are right, I meant to type Scorpion.  I'll fix it. 

(I wonder if the Statins I now have to take are screwing with my memory?)

Cheers,

It’s probably your equal disdain for them both showing, TT 

I don't disdain the Shorai, Cal.  I actually have one that still works quite well, in my RC equipment.  I just don't use it in the SOHC4, since I have yet to find or make a protection circuit for it.  I don't want it damaged by excessive drain.

Cheers,

Only pulling your leg, TT. I know you’re a man of science and recognize where certain technologies have their best application. 

I get it Cal.  I'm just finding excuses not to go out and load the trailer, in hopefully my last moving load to AZ.

Once more, into the breech....

Cheers,

The world doesn’t like quitters, Lloyd. I’d think with the social climate in your prior state, you’d be totally motivated to move regardless of the effort! Not “Once more into the breech...” but, “Last time, hurrah!!!”

Good point! 
Now instead of figuring a way to make more water available, even in non-drought eras, (and there's an ocean of water just off a very long coastline), the state has decided to mandatorily ration everyone (except the Gov) to 55 gallons a day, since they know how best to manage resources.  Of course, it's not really the fines they are after.    It's the message that they have the power and control over every individual in the state that isn't "connected".  State party rights are more important than individual rights.

[ofreen]

I bought my first Westco AGM battery in 2001.  I've run them in the 750F, CBR1000F, and R100GS.  I've never gotten less than 8 years service from one.  The nice thing about them is I have never had one fail outright.  They just at some point start cranking the bike slower, so give plenty of warning that they are approaching their pull date.

[Sparco195]

I am starting to believe that running the 3.0 Ohm coils paired with the LED lights, head and tail, with some accent lighting, would be the ideal setup for an 8 cell Li-On battery. it would keep the battery from over charging, due to higher draw of power, which would help for known dangers. my only concern would be under charging and having a dead harmless battery, right?

wouldn't that be a safer route if everyone has concerns with a battery blowing up due to over charging? plus i have a lower volt reg on top of that too...if cost is the only downside for a battery that last much longer and provides good CCA, but has low overall capacity for running lights and accessories, for a weekend only rider it sounds like my ideal setup.

any new thoughts?    probably gonna go with the 8 cell otherwise...but...

From my research I am only seeing AGM batteries that are about the same size only putting out 45 CCA and around 8 or 9 volts. if anyone knows about a small sized AGM with good proper volt and crank please tell me.  OR if a 9V 45CCA battery will suit my needs for a much less cost then i shall go that route.

[TwoTired]

I am starting to believe that running the 3.0 Ohm coils paired with the LED lights, head and tail, with some accent lighting, would be the ideal setup for an 8 cell Li-On battery. it would keep the battery from over charging, due to higher draw of power, which would help for known dangers. my only concern would be under charging and having a dead harmless battery, right?

Wow.  But, from an engineering standpoint...

The alternator puts out zero to max power depending on its spinning RPM, and strength of it's excited magnetic field.  The Vreg limits the max power output based on what it senses from the battery (voltage), by controlling the strength of the magnetic field.

The electrical load will steal energy from the charging system or battery depending on whichever is stronger.  The Vreg's job is to keep any alternator excess power from overcharging the battery.  At all other times, the alternator should put out all of the bike's power load demands, Rev dependent.

The only reason to employ 3.0 ohms coils is if your engine has been modified to require a higher voltage delivery to the spark plugs (higher compression) or you insist on changing the spark gap to a larger gap setting.  Otherwise, you are just wasting energy and taxing the alternator/battery unnecessarily.

If your battery is getting too high a voltage when the alternator is revving, then your Vreg is set to the wrong upper limit, or your vreg to battery connections are lossy and not reporting the correct voltage to the Vreg.

If the battery is depleting too rapidly, you have too much load from the bike, a too small capacity battery, or a fault in the charging system.

Cheers,

[scottly]

in short the the very infamous question, lithium ion, vs. AGM...

I ordered a Oregon motorcycle parts Reg/Rec with the lower voltage setting to accommodate lithium batteries, but since everybody on this forum in general seems to be completely contrary to lithium batteries in these bikes i dont know what to do.

I like the idea of a very light battery, as well as the cranking power and size, but what i need help with is; will an 8 cell do me just fine, or do i need maybe a 12 cell?

on the contrary i have seen AGM batteries that are almost the size of a medium (8cell?) lithium battery that would do just fine for size at 1/4th of the price. would the smallest AGM battery suit my needs?

what are some thoughts?

First, what bike?
What exact lithium batteries are you looking at? There are two types; lithium ion(LiPo) and lithium iron(LiFe). LiPo batteries are the ones that burst into flames, sometimes for no apparent reason. I don't recommend them.
I've had good luck with LiFe batteries for 7 years now.
The capacity of a lithium battery, unlike a lead-acid AGM, isn't necessarily related to it's physical size; Shorai puts the same battery in different size cases so they fit into a stock battery tray. The smallest case is about the same size as a 3 amp-hour lead-acid battery, but can provide 210 cranking amps. A 3amp-hour lead-acid can't provide the amps to run the starter.   
 

[Sparco195]

The bike in question is A 1978 cb550. it has the 3.0 over bore 600cc piston kit.

as far as the 3.0 OHM coils the bike came with them when I purchased it. the bike starts up very easy, on a cold start without a choke it never takes more than about 2 cranks from the starter, and averaging 1 crank fire.  if the coils are to blame for this I would rather keep them....

[calj737]

the bike starts up very easy, on a cold start without a choke it never takes more than about 2 cranks from the starter, and averaging 1 crank fire.  if the coils are to blame for this I would rather keep them....

Sounds like its jetted very rich in the pilot circuit. The coils are responsible for a heavier battery draw, not the "rapid fire".

[TwoTired]

I don't know the dwell characteristics (coil ON time) of the Dyna 2000.  But, when the coils are being charged up, they will draw 4A rather than the 2.4A  the stock 5 ohm coils do.  Considering the alternator makes about 5 amps at normal idle speed (it's a 12 amp alternator when spun up.), it's not too surprising the battery is depleting, especially with other loads like lighting added to the power draw.  The stock bike draws about 10 amps with lighting on during run time.

The Goldwing has low ohm coils, but they only give full battery voltage to the coils when the starter motor is engaged.  Otherwise they are given 6V during run time with an inline voltage drop resistor.   Contact Hondaman for a resistor kit to tame the excessive power draw of the 3 ohm coils, if you insist on keeping them.

In the mean time, characterize what your bike does:
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V for lead acid type.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.  Note how the voltage is trending.  This tells you if the battery is recharging or depleting, and what RPM is need to keep up with the bike's electrical loads.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off (pull the lighting fuses if need be).

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual for lead acid applications.  If you have a lithium type, get state of charge information from their manufacturer.  The LiPO4 types should top out at 14.6V IIRC.  But, if voltage readings trend downward, then it is depleting, and the charging system isn't keeping up with the power demand.

Cheers,