Topic: Scottish Independence (Let my people go!)

[Rocking-M]

Any Scots on here?


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070116/wl_uk_afp/britainpolitics_070116191050

http://www.scottishindependence.com/

[nickjtc]

I'm from south of the border, but agree totally with Blair's comment:

"In commerce, in trade, in security and above all in shared values, the union of England and Scotland continues to be good for England, good for Scotland and right for the future of Britain."

Just as with the Parti Quebecois and their efforts to separate from Canada I think any thoughts of fragmentation these days are fraught with peril.....

Over to everyone else....

[Rocking-M]

Hum! It was good for the Soviet Union though eh?

[burmashave]

Rockin M, I'm working on a theory that says you're Scotch-Irish.  Have you read Born Fighting?  I haven't read it yet but my mum (Scotch-Irish DAR from southern Virginia) thinks that it is excellent.  She gave me a few choice bits of information from the book, and from what I understand, it would be a really bad idea to stir up the Scots.  You may follow the politics more closely; however, it seems to me that Blair and other British leaders are trying to handle this one delicately. 

I don't know enough about their situation to weigh in on specifics; however, I think the issue of a successful separation lies in the reasons and the plans for separation.  Separation based upon the "we're not like you, nor do we like you" reasons, as is the case in Quebec, may well lead to a detrimental situation for all.  On the other hand, separation based upon a different vision and/or mode of government, as was the case for the US and the Soviet Union, can lead to new opportunities for the new country.  To me, the real questions lie are, "What problems do the Scots wish to be resolved, and what would be the best ways to solve them?"

By the way, I couldn't watch the video because I don't have sound where I am at the moment.

[medic09]

I'm from south of the border, but agree totally with Blair's comment:

"In commerce, in trade, in security and above all in shared values, the union of England and Scotland continues to be good for England, good for Scotland and right for the future of Britain."

Just as with the Parti Quebecois and their efforts to separate from Canada I think any thoughts of fragmentation these days are fraught with peril.....

Over to everyone else....

Largely, I agree (as a foreigner  .  BUT, having lived in Canada, I credit the Scots with generally alot more sense than Parti Quebecois...

[andy750]

I think if you know Scotland and if you know England then you will know they are two different countries.

Scotland has its own education system, own laws, own history and own sense of identity. Scottish people on the whole feel more European than their English counterparts (Scotland would likely welcome the Euro and could easily become the next Ireland of the EC  -same highly educated workforce exists in Scotland) and there is historical precedence for this -the oldest alliance in the world exists between Scotland and France (known in Scotland as the "Auld Alliance" - formed in the 12th Century and still thought of fondly by both French and Scottish although not sure of the actual relevance now except through tourism (which is important economically for Scotland). However, this alliance with Europe does go against Blairs comments on "shared values" - not quite so - shared about what? Since we have our own law courts and education system then these values clearly diverge at a basic level.

Security? Who wants to bomb Scotland? We are all about going out in the world following our dismal national team as the "Tartan Army", getting drunk and being happy about it and chatting up foreign girls who all love a guy in a kilt with a sexy accent!  (no violent hooligans here - they are all following England! So much for shared values!).

cheers
Andy (and you guessed it Im Scottish and proud of it )

[Rocking-M]

Thanks for the response Andy. I wanted to hear from another Scot, we just talked to one
who has a shop in Lexington, VA. Ordered the oldest son's kilt from him and he informed us that
it would be at least 6 weeks getting it from Scotland as, it takes a while to sober up after the
New Year 

Hey Burma, I'm pretty much all Scot decent, Dad a McNabb, mother a McCormick.
SE NC was primarily settled by highland Scots hence the site of one of the earliest highland
games over here in Red Springs, NC. Scots-Irish is pretty much a misused term as I understand it.
Scots were banned to Ireland where they remained distinctly separate and then when cleared
to the States they were called Scot-Irish which they bristled at needless to say.
Not that I have anything against Irish folks but Scots don't like being referred to in any
other way than they dictate

By the way, I had grand plans to get a McNabb herding dog from out in California,
Seems an Alexander McNabb back in the mid to late 1800's started that line based
on a couple of border collies he brought over from Scotland and a Herding dog of Spanish origin (not sure on the second part).
Anyway, the wife said, no more McNabb's in the house, he or she will have to stay outside

[andy750]

Good post Rocking-M and if Im ever down in NC Ill see if I can make it the Highland games - there is an annual games in NH every year and its always good to go see....just not like home though :-).

You are absolutely correct on the whole SCOTS-Irish thing (Burma its Scots - NOT SCOTCH! Scotch is an americanism....Scots are the people of Scotland, and the English are the people of England (not Britain  ).

In 3 days time there will be one of the most important dates on the Scottish Calander  -Burns Supper - whiskey, a night of Scottish music, a ceilidh (Scottish dancing), whiskey, toasts, poetry and of course lots of haggis  ...all to commemorate our most famous national poet - Robert Burns (January 25, 1759 – July 21, 1796).

cheers
Andy

[ChrisR]

I think Scottish independance is a bit of a moot point as by the time they are fully independant of England they will be fully dependant on the EU as will England and the rest. In the not too distant future the countries of Europe will be merely semi-autonomous regions of the United States of Europe ruled from Brussels. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
The EU has had some political benefits in Britain as it has to some extent pulled the rug out from under the IRA, changed the goal posts, and made a settlement possible. But I fear the possibility of true independance for Scotland has gone unless they want to try to extracate themselves from the EU.
And I speak as a supporter of the EU. 

[Sam Green Racing]

Good post Rocking-M and if Im ever down in NC Ill see if I can make it the Highland games - there is an annual games in NH every year and its always good to go see....just not like home though :-).

You are absolutely correct on the whole SCOTS-Irish thing (Burma its Scots - NOT SCOTCH! Scotch is an americanism....Scots are the people of Scotland, and the English are the people of England (not Britain  ).

In 3 days time there will be one of the most important dates on the Scottish Calander  -Burns Supper - whiskey, a night of Scottish music, a ceilidh (Scottish dancing), whiskey, toasts, poetry and of course lots of haggis  ...all to commemorate our most famous national poet - Robert Burns (January 25, 1759 – July 21, 1796).

cheers
Andy

Hey Andy, ya forgot the tatties and neeps,   

And a happy Burns night to you sir

Sam.

[andy750]

Thanks Sam! Got to love haggis, tatties and neeps...I have a dinner to go to in Boston and am looking forward to getting some 

cheers
Andy

[Rocking-M]

Now that you mention Haggis, there is a fine producer of haggis here in the States.
But, it's in a can. I know, that would never do for a real Scotsman but hey, us
of Scottish decent have to have something that is close you know.

Andy, if you ever take a trip down this way let me know for sure.
They also throw a fine Highland Games at Grandfather Mountain, NC.
Maybe we should plan a 750 gathering there this year

its on July 12-15th this year.

http://www.gmhg.org/

Looks like the Grandfather Mountain Games has been going on longer than the
Red Spring's Games, here is the site for the Flora MacDonald Games, Oct. 6-8

http://www.capefearscots.com/events.html

By the way, in SE NC the Oct. date is well before the first frost. so there would probably be
a few skeeters floating around.

[burmashave]

...You are absolutely correct on the whole SCOTS-Irish thing (Burma its Scots - NOT SCOTCH! Scotch is an americanism....Scots are the people of Scotland, and the English are the people of England (not Britain  )....

Ohmigosh.  My apologies.  That was a dumb*ss mistake, and I know it. 

[supersport_CB400F]

You guy’s should write to the UK government and thank the English tax payers for funding the Wales and Scotland parliaments. 

[andy750]

Ok Biffta and while we are doing that why not ask the English taxpayers to write to the Scottish people and thank them for all the oil and gas they pillaged over the years from the North Sea (in Scottish waters) 

cheers
Andy

[supersport_CB400F]

Ok Biffta and while we are doing that why not ask the English taxpayers to write to the Scottish people and thank them for all the oil and gas they pillaged over the years from the North Sea (in Scottish waters) 

cheers
Andy

I would ask that question to parliament about the oil and gas when you thank them for the funding you get now, my part of England gets nowt!, Maggie T sold all the resources and she is an alien not English. I also think we should have held onto the North Sea resources. 

[andy750]

Ah yes Maggie T the British prime minister who tried out the poll tax on Scotland first a full year before anywhere else in the UK....now thats fair right? 

We could go on and on Biffta but whats the point...you dont sound too enamoured with the British government yourself - more like the British version of ETA 


cheers
Andy

[supersport_CB400F]

Ah yes Maggie T the British prime minister who tried out the poll tax on Scotland first a full year before anywhere else in the UK....now thats fair right? 

We could go on and on Biffta but whats the point...you dont sound too enamoured with the British government yourself - more like the British version of ETA 


cheers
Andy

I think the guys down in London are doing a great job for London and themselves, but the majority of tax payers live outside London and so far only Wales and Scotland have any sort of say of what’s happening locally. I would love to see another parliament North of Birmingham but in England that has a big say, the population of our area is much more than Wales or Scotland I would guess. It would be only fair that we had a North of England assembly with some clout.
 I’m no ETA guy just a concerned resident voter who thinks my part of the country gets a bum deal from London …. I live here and I pay the taxes do you? 

[Jeb]

The mountains of GA, NC, & SC are full of Scots - many Jacobite rebellion ancestors.  I am a Drummond myself by the way.  Never mind Scotland how 'bout letting the deep south secede.  No one would miss us and we certainly won't miss the rest of the Union.  All Southerns no matter their heritage are tired of a government dominated by the large cities of the N.E., midwest, and west coast or by Hillary & Nancy.  I am just kidding - but it is true.

[oldbiker]

If Scotland goes independant and gets no more support from the English tax-payer, they will soon be back to wearing animal skins and painting themselves blue. Besides most of the Scots are down here running the English Parliament and making life miserable for all us taxpaying Englishmen.
As a point of interest, why are there no Englishmen running the Scottish Parliament?

[Klark Kent]

Now that you mention Haggis, there is a fine producer of haggis here in the States.
But, it's in a can. I know, that would never do for a real Scotsman but hey, us
of Scottish decent have to have something that is close you know.

Andy, if you ever take a trip down this way let me know for sure.
They also throw a fine Highland Games at Grandfather Mountain, NC.
Maybe we should plan a 750 gathering there this year

its on July 12-15th this year.

http://www.gmhg.org/

well, if it s just for scots on 750s then fine.  but this russian lithuanian austrain polish jew would love to ride his 550 to anything that kicks things off with a picnic, torchlight ceremony & sheep herding (before going on to 'The Bear: assault on grandfather').
http://www.gmhg.org/events.htm

seriously, i would be into going.
-KK

[andy750]

Nah Oldbiker we would go back to inventing things like TVs, telephones, penicillin, steam engines, as well exporting our brand of Scottish enlightenment to the Americans (ref . to Declaration of Independence). But good point about the Scot running Parliament....I wonder why that is  ...and dont forget the late John Smith, the PM that never was. Clearly the Scottish have succeeded in politics.

Biffta - the difference between the North of  England and Scotland (and Wales) is that we are both countries. We have our own national teams, our own national flag, laws, education system etc etc....and have had these things for a very long time. This gives us the right to decide our own future in my opinion. If you want things to change in YOUR area then Im sure you are doing everything you can by voting for those who have your interests at heart. But your cause is not the same as the Scottish independence movement.

cheers
Andy

[upperlake04]

we would go back to inventing things like TVs, telephones, penicillin, steam engines, as well exporting our brand of Scottish enlightenment to the Americans

Ahemm Andy - while AGB may have been physically conceived in Scotland, his brilliant and creative energies were nurtured on the soil of his long term home in Nova Scotia, CANADA. We consider him one of ours, and you may only claim half points

[andy750]

Upperlake, being concieved in Scotland makes him Scottish.....living in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) means he was probably surrounded by Scots.....nice try.  ...any really famous Candadians apart from Mike Myers (who had Scottish parents!)?

cheers
Andy

[upperlake04]

    lots and lots Andy, for starters...

[mick750F]

   Famous Canadians? There's always Saint Bobby

[andy750]

Ok upperlake Ill give you that! 

(a lot better than Micks!).

cheers
Andy

[crazypj]

I was in Britain and involved in local government when Wales got its own parliament.
What a total waste of time and money. Just another layer of useless bureaucracy.
I made the gap between the haves and have nots wider in my opinion.
ont get me started on European parliament, what total bunch of greedy unprincipled loafers
 
PJ

[supersport_CB400F]

Nah Oldbiker we would go back to inventing things like TVs, telephones, penicillin, steam engines, as well exporting our brand of Scottish enlightenment to the Americans (ref . to Declaration of Independence). But good point about the Scot running Parliament....I wonder why that is  ...and dont forget the late John Smith, the PM that never was. Clearly the Scottish have succeeded in politics.

Biffta - the difference between the North of  England and Scotland (and Wales) is that we are both countries. We have our own national teams, our own national flag, laws, education system etc etc....and have had these things for a very long time. This gives us the right to decide our own future in my opinion. If you want things to change in YOUR area then Im sure you are doing everything you can by voting for those who have your interests at heart. But your cause is not the same as the Scottish independence movement.

cheers
Andy

If Scotland is such a good place, how come you live and work in another country and leave the English tax payer footing the bill for freedom and choice for the people who actually live in Scotland, it seems lots of people on DSS benefits I’ve read, much like my own region.
 I applaud the regional assembles they can make a difference but they need to be extended, Oldbiker has it right about your home country it has nothing but mountains and could never sustain it’s own economy if it was left as an independent country. It needs England we keep you afloat if it wasn’t for the English tax payer the local Scottish guys would never be able to buy a new skirt/kilt.

[andy750]

Spoken like a true Englishman Biffta. Scotland is such a great place to live and cheaper cost of living than southern England and a much better quality of life (look at all the mountains we have :-)). There are large numbers of Scots abroad with a stellar reputation in all sectors of business  -why are we abroad and not at home? Well someone has to be the Ambassadors for how great Scotland is  . ....see my bike pics in a previous post - in 3 different pics there are 3 different girsl - Lebanese, Trinidad and Dutch...now they all think Scotland is great...see how easy it is! 


As Sean Connery said:

""Scotland is a rich country. We have resources in abundance - oil, gas, land, water, fish - and talented people.

"The ingredients of success are all there. We've held back for too long. After three centuries, it's time to go for forward as an independent nation."

Couldnt agree more  . Weve always had plenty of talent, we have the natural resources (oil, gas), the land (land management, tourism, real estate), hydroelectric power, nuclear power), financial centres (Edinburgh - huge for Assurance and Insurance industries/banking/finance etc as is Glasgow).

If you havent been Biffta I highly recommend it. Place is second to none. And no we dont need to the English to keep us afloat - as I said ealrier you lot are nicking all our oil and gas revenues  ....at least we are running the country! (Blair, Brown -both Scottish). 

cheers
Andy

[BobbyR]

No matter what you guys do, there are some things that should not be tampered with:

[Rocking-M]

Hey KK, we'd surely welcome you as a brother, might even find a kilt for you to wear

Hey Jeb, I am a Southern Nationalist, I still want independence down South and I ain't kidding!
And, since I'm of Scottish descent I want be changing my mind.

[andy750]

Scotland leaching off the English....mmmm I dont think so....(read the part about the oil/gas).....

"As far back as 1975, experts recognised that oil could make an independent Scotland one of the richest countries in Europe. A government report saying as much was labelled incendiary, classified as secret and hidden away for 30 years until it came to light at the end of 2005 as a result of Freedom of Information legislation."

The rest of the argument over whether Scotland COULD be independent is well presented here for those (e.g. Biffta) who may be interested....

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2157394.ece

cheers
Andy

[oldbiker]

Hi Andy, Sean Connery talks a very good case for Scotland:- I wonder why he doesn't live there?
I accept that Scotland has some very nice views and mountains (don't fall off one while riding your SOHC) and when I visited there I was made very welcome, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Do you think you could persuade B.Liar, Brown, Reid etc. to return home on a permanent basis as they are ruining this old pensioners life.