Author Topic: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning  (Read 11018 times)

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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Going to attempt to remove and clean the carbs of my 1971 cb500.
I’m almost certain that by the end of my attempt, I’ll need to to take her to the shop, but I am going to try it out anyways because who knows?... maybe I’ll nail it first try!
The bike has sat for 8-9 months and would not start. Finally I got it to start (with the help of deltarider and tootired (and other guys on this forum). So, got it running.... sparks on all four plugs and points. Gas drains from the float bowls of #2 and #4. No gas from #3 carb float bowl and carb #1’s float bowl screw is stripped, so I didn’t even try that one.
So, like I said, the bike starts,  but the bike’s idle fluctuates all over the place.  Using the idle adjustment screw, i get the rpm to 1000-1100, then it shoots to 2500rpm and then dips down to 800rpm then dies. When the bike is warm, the #2 and #4 headers are hot....headers  #1 and #4 are ice cold.
It was suggested by a few people that I clean the carburetors...
I’ve been on YouTube looking for tutorials on how to do this, but this is the first time I’ll be attempting this, so I’m a little intimidated by this....
Anyone got a “go-to” carb cleaning video that they’d suggest? Any pro-tips?
Again, I’m (almost) certain that I’ll have to take the bike to the shop at the end of this (because that’s just my luck), but it’d be pretty cool if I didn’t have to. I’ve have this bike for about five years and I’ve had to take her to the shop twice already to get the carbs cleaned. At this point I’ve paid more money to shops than i initially paid for the bike. I’d like to learn how to do the maintenance on the bike to avoid future visits to the the bike shop. Thanks to all that helped me get my bike running, and thanks to all that might help me with this new venture!!!

Offline bryanj

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 01:54:45 AM »
You need to have the complete airbox loose and if its an old bike spend a bit for new intake rubbers(carb to head) plus airbox to carb rubbers, aftermarket only. It will make the reassembly way easier as they will be flexible instead of rock hard!
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 08:32:35 AM »
Vulture, I'd suggest the easiest first. If no gas exits from the drain opening, there's either an obstruction or a valve needle sticking in its seat.
Tap the suspect carb (gently!) with the stub end of a screwdriver and hope the valve needle will free itself. Opening and closing the petcock quickly might help flush.
If this does not help, you have to remove the floatbowls, I'm afraid.
If this is the first time for you, removing the carbs to have them upside on the table is the easiest. Unscrew the 16 crossheads, remove the bowls and inspect the interior. It is not needed to open the top lids. Just remove the floatbowl. You can remove all jets and the float valve seat for inspection. Make yourself familiar with the interior.
After you have finished, you may consider on assembly to have allen screws to replace those dreadful 16 crossheads.
 
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 08:37:52 PM »
Other than the pilot jet and the main jet, is there something I should specifically address while I have the carbs out?

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 10:46:25 PM »
Deltarider- the needle jets to #1 and 3 were clogged (the same carbs that were not draining gas from the carb drain screw), I freed them up with some carb cleaner... think I should stop there and slap this thing back together?... or should I go further?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 12:30:36 AM »
To be sure, what do you mean by needle jets? Needle jets is the term we reserve for what some may call emulsion tubes. They're around the long needles that hang from the slides. But I have the feeling you refer to the very small valve needles that sit above the float and move up and down by the float (see the third pic below). If the latter are blocked, indeed, no gas will pass and we can expect those carbs not to drain gas. However, if you really mean the needle jets (that I referred to above), I can't see what they have to do with draining or not. Since you are new to this,I suggest you have a good look at an exploded view of the carbs so we can be sure we're communicating about the same thing. https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500k1-four-1972-usa_model460/partslist/E++22.html#.XHZNAqDvJVc
Now you're there, I advise you to unscrew the slow jets (aka idle jets) They have a slot so you can use a screwdriver. Gently! Inspect they're open. If not, you may use some carburettor cleaner and stranded copper wire to clean them. Don't use anything that can damage the brass. Please report back about your findings and we can give you some more info. Do you have a can of carbcleaner and a straw at hand?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:49:01 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2019, 07:47:58 AM »
Heat is your friend. Pick up an inexpensive heat gun from Harbor Freight if you don't have one and warm up the rubber connectors between the carb and the head both before you try to remove the carbs and before you try to install, it makes a huge difference in how hard they are to remove/install. I also usually apply a very light smear of lithium grease inside the rubber before putting the carbs back on to help them get back together.
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 11:56:22 AM »
Ok, so here is what I’ve done....pulled out the SLOW JET (2 were clogged/ 2 were fine)
-shot carb cleaner in them all and hit them all with a can of air
-shot carb cleaner through all four small holes (pictured)...
-Carb cleaner came out the other side thought the slow jet (pictured)

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2019, 12:01:57 PM »
...shot carb cleaner through the brass tubes (pictured)
-carb cleaner drained out of the emulsion tube(?)...( pictured)
.... should I be messing with the floats? Or am I good to go?

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2019, 01:24:38 PM »
You want to make sure the floats move smoothly and easily up and down. Personally I like to pull the pins and give them a polish with 0000 steel wool. If you decide to do this be very careful. Fixing a broken float pin tower is neither easy nor cheap.

If the floats move easily I would double check the height. I use a small metal ruler with a sliding T that I picked up from Ace Hardware.
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2019, 07:06:11 PM »
After checking/ light maintenance on the floats.... good to slap back in and start up?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2019, 01:34:19 AM »
When you extract the float swivel pins, do it gently and do not pinch them. Polish these pins and also the conical tip of the float needles and their seats. It really doesn't take much to have them clean. WD-40 or a little carbcleaner is fine. Be sure not to use anything that can abrase. I myself would not dare to use steel wool. You can cut a measure tool out of an used credit card and check the float height as shown in the Honda Shop manual. Provided nobody messed with them, it is almost certain the floats WON'T need adjustment.
OK, you are almost an expert by now. You could pull the main jets (very easy) and have a look at the little O-rings around them. They must seal well. Now to have a close look at the needle jets (aka emusion tubes), you could raise the gas slides, imitating full throttle so to speak. In my experience the tubes will drop by gravity. If not, you can help them a hand by inserting a wooden pick from below, cant it and wiggle them out. A little WD-40 at forehand can help. You want to keep them in the order they were in: 1, 2, 3 and 4. Check the tiny holes in the sides. They should be open. For the inside of the tubes you could use a pipe cleaner with some carbcleaner. Again, abstain from anything abbrasive. Leave the needles where they are. You may spray some carbcleaner up there, but that's it. Push the tubes in again followed by the main jets. By now, you have completed almost everything you can do. I do not know if you have removed the float valve seats. If you did, it wouldn't harm to blow air in the opposite direction of the fuel flow. Make sure you put in the float valve seats in the right way. Check again the floats can move easily. On assembly, make sure the floats are in the center and will not be hindered. Screw in the slow jets. I do not know if you have removed the airscrews in the sides of the carbs. If you do, first turn them in (gently!) to determine the position they were in and keep note of it. You can now screw them out (do not loose the little springs) and spray carbcleaner in the holes. Verify the airscrew are clean and undamaged. Screw them in again in the position they were in before you removed them. Done.
You can now fit the floatbowls again. You can reuse the 16 screw heads ofcourse, but I choose to replace them by allen screws (see pic). Note that you did NOT have to remove the toplids. No need for it. There's nothing to clean in there.
What I have learned from experience, is that the CB500 and early models CB550 are very sensitive to have the correct fuel lines. If you have the standard petcock, length should be 18 and 30 cm resp. with an ideal internal ⌀ of 5,5 mm. Outside ⌀ will be around 10 mm. Route the fuellines correctly using for fuelline to carb 3 + 4 the little clamp you will find in the front of the carbs. Make sure this particular fuelline will not have an 'up and down' if you know what I mean, but will facilitate gravity to do its work unhindered. No extra inline fuelfilters. They'll bring trouble on these models.
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2019, 12:25:02 AM »
Thank you to:
Bryanj, calj737, DELTARIDER AND BANKERDANNY....
I’m eager to run through these steps and report my findings tomorrow.
Can’t thank you guys enough for your time and for helping me!!!

Offline bryanj

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2019, 02:08:20 AM »
You are welcome i am now at the age between too busy and memory loss so try to pass it on before it vanishes
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2019, 03:23:22 AM »
DELTARIDER.... is this what you mean by “emulsion tubes”?

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2019, 03:24:54 AM »
I pulled the mainjet out.... under the main jet is where the emulsion tube is?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2019, 07:18:26 AM »
Yes Sir. Now if you raise the slides, moving by hand the central cam where the cables attach, (it's a bit hard to fight the return spring), imitating WOT so to speak (actually halfway may already be enough), the needles will also go up, enabling you to poke some wooden toothpick or whatever inside the bottom of the tube. Usually you can then wiggle the tubes out. Some WD-40 at forehand may help. Mine just drop by gravity, as soon as I raise the slides, but that's because I keep my carbs wet at all times (natural state). It's not abnormal you'll find some of the little holes in the sides of the tubes blocked by white stuff (remnant of water). You can clean them. Some in this forum seem quite fanatic about the cleanliness of these holes. I myself never noticed much difference if at all. The fuel gets aerated enough anyway.
Don't worry about the needles in there. You may spray some carbcleaner up there, but the needles themselves are usually spotless.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 07:27:41 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2019, 01:27:14 AM »
alright...

so i failed....

screwed the pooch for sure...

i'm pretty sure i followed ALL directions given to me (as best that i could) *except* i didnt remove the airscrews and clean them out.

- i removed and cleaned (with carb cleaner) the main jets, emulsion tubes (needle jets), slow jets
- got rid of the inline fuel filters and replaced the fuel lines
- removed and cleaned the swivel pins of the float valve
- cleaned the valve seat and needles
-slapped the carbs back up to the bike
-hooked up the throttle cables
-connected the gas tank to the carbs
-turned the gas tank to "reserve"
- gave the throttle two cranks to get the gas to the carbs (just thought it would help get gas to the carbs...not sure if it was the right thing to do)
....gas came gushing out of the small brass tubes that sit below carbs #1 and #2

I will say that i replaced the "O" rings to 3 of the 4 Main jets....
i went to my local "honda shop" (MOTO UNITED) and they said that the "O" rings were discontinued. they directed me to a local bike shop that sold me 4 "O" rings for a buck.... dude at the local bike shop sized up my main jet with an "O" ring and said " yep,this is just 'bout perfect!".... the "O" ring looked correct in height, but didnt cover the width of the main jet....

ALSO: i had a hard time getting the gaskets to sit between the float body chamber and carb body

....any ideas?

-

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2019, 01:41:18 AM »
At this point, should I buy a “carb rebuild kit” off eBay?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2019, 05:52:40 AM »
No. Fuel gushing out of the overflow tubes can simply be a result of the float not seating yet. best to take a screwdriver and use the handle and rap on the body of the carb with the petcock open. This will very often jiggle the floats free and allow them, or the needle valve to seat.

You can simply have a minute piece of debris in the carbs or fuel line that is obstructing the floats from seating the needle valve. Don’t panic.

It is also possible that the overflow tube itself has a hairline crack in it. First try the screwdriver trick. Open the drain screw in the bottom of the bowl, use a small plastic bin and allow some fuel to drain out. Inspect it for debris. Close the screw, and see if the fuel flow settles down. Worst case, remove the bowl, fill it manually with gas, and see if fuel sweeps through the overflow tube.

You haven’t screwed any pooch yet.
+1. And as far as the airscrews, don't worry too much. Usually they're clean and open. BTW, you can also remove them with the carbs in situ or save that job for later. It's essential however that the little O-rings around the main jets seal well. If they don't, the engine will greedily suck in the extra gas that can pass around them and your bike will run stinking rich.
Leakages often occur after some time of inactivity with the carbs drained. Realise that seals then need some time to swell up again. Could be the case with the O-rings around the valve seats. Many of us experience leakages after a long period of hibernation and often they stop as soon as the seals have regained their size. But first I would concentrate on what Cal posted.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 05:58:59 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 AM »
thanks guys!

...i was very surprised to wake up and hear that you guys didn't think that i completely "F" this up....

-(after 24 hours)i gently rapped the carbs with the butt end of the bottom of the float bowls, and then i reintroduced gas to the carbs
- started the bike up (and it actually started)
-put the choke on for a few secs
-after a few secs i lowered the choke to the middle and it died...
-after that i closed the choke and relied on strictly the throttle to keep the bike going
NOTE: when the bike ran "perfectly", i didn't have to use the choke AT ALL...i just had my hand on the throttle while i started the bike up and i didn't rely on on the choke
anyhow...
- bike started
- adjusted the idle screw to where the rpms read at a contant 1000rpm
-i gave the throttle a couple of turns and the bike seems to not "bog down" AND/OR stall out
- seems like it is running well and she responds to me giving it gas
 BUT.....
there is some gas coming outta the top of the carbs and there is quite of bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust....more than i remember...

Again... i want to thank you guys for helping me out!
you've saved me a $hit ton of $$$ and i've learned a great deal about how my bike works and how it runs...invaluable lesson
....gas still leaked a little from the bike (but the leakage was 90% less then what it was last night)

Offline Deltarider

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 05:26:48 AM »
... I gently rapped the carbs with the butt end of the bottom of the float bowls...
I suppose you mean with the butt end of a screwdriver.

Quote
-put the choke on for a few secs
-after a few secs i lowered the choke to the middle and it died...
Not abnormal. The engine not having reached its working temperature, needs a raised idle, say 2000 rpm.
Quote
- bike started
- adjusted the idle screw to where the rpms read at a contant 1000rpm
Make it 1100-1200 rpm.
Quote
there is some gas coming outta the top of the carbs...
Strange. I hope you have attached the fuellines to the proper T-joints and not somewhere else. Try to see if maybe the O-rings around the T-joints leak. If so, give it some time and pray. Maybe they swell up again. If the leakages continue, alas, the O-rings will have to be renewed and that implies separating the carbs from the rack. But let's not despair. Honda thoroughly fitted two O-rings on either side of such a T-joint and at least mine seem to live forever. But I keep my fuel system 'wet' during hibernation, so mine do not shrink.
Quote
and there is quite of bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust....more than i remember...
What color smoke? Black? White? Blue?
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Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2019, 03:09:48 PM »
-I upped the rpm to idle at 1200
....white smoke.

Offline vulture0027@gmail.com

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2019, 09:26:33 PM »
Sorry to beat this thread into the ground...
BUT.... how long do you think it should take for gas to stop running from the overflow tubes at the bottom of the carb bowl? It’s been about 48 hours since I put the carbs back into the bike. This thing just keeps wanting to leak gas from the overflow tubes. Just now went to the gas station. I got there, turned off the bike and after a few seconds gas was flowing pretty good from carb 4, then stopped, then started draining from carb 3, then started dribbling from carb 2 then 1. By the time I left the gas station there was a puddle of gas about a foot and a half in diameter. Is this normal?

Offline bryanj

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Re: ‘71 Honda cb500- first time attempt of carburetor removal/cleaning
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2019, 01:35:23 AM »
ALWAYS turn the petcock off when you stop the engine but having said that you still have a problem with either float neddle valves or standpipes
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!