Topic: Resurrecting Rusty - my CB400F

[The Lone Builder]

I’ve already posted several times in the short while I’ve been working on Rusty, so I though I should just start a specific thread.

Should I, can I, move the previous posts to here? These are the links for interest.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,182223.msg2109991.html#msg2109991 and

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,182382.msg2112532.html#msg2112532

This post is about wiring. I saw a good deal on eBay for a set of bars with both switches. Apart from one small area, the bars are in better shape than mine; trouble is they don’t fit!  .

The switches are in good condition and the wiring is again in better nick than mine. However, on the right switch, starter - kill - and headlight P/L/H has me stumped.

The wiring on my original switch is Bk and Bk/Wh for kill switch; Bk, Br/B and Bk-R for lights; and Bk and Y/R for the start button.

The wires on the new one are: Bk and Bk/Wh for the kill switch; BK, Br/B and Bk/R for the headlight switch and then R/Y, Y/Wh and Y which don’t do anything; the starter button doesn’t “work”.

In Hondaman’s book it says that on some versions, the start button just goes to ground when pressed thus completing the circuit. So this would explain the apparent non-functioning button.

 The only yellow I have come across before is from the alternator to rectifier, but I have not see a Y/Wh before, nor can I find it mentioned in any list of Honda wiring colours.

Any thoughts?

[Bodi]

Bit of a mystery, yes.
What do you mean the handlebars "don't fit"?
What year and market is your 400F?
Note that both links you posted are to the same place.
Do you have any idea what brand/model/year your ebay set came from?
The yellow wires don't seem like Honda wiring colors to me, as you say the only yellows should be for the alternator stator. Honda switches (at least for NA markets) have the headlight hi/lo switch on the left with the signal and horn switches, and other markets have a lighting on/off switch on the right (no switch here due to always-on lighting laws).
The best advice is to use a meter to figure out what the switches do. Then maybe you can figure out a way to use them. Or you can get repro switch assemblies from David Silver for about €90 for both.

[bryanj]

Sounds like a 450 switch that altered the generator wiring when you turned lights on, dont think that can be wired to fit

[The Lone Builder]

The item was described as:
Honda Cb400f Cb500 4 Four Cb550 Handle Bars Switches Internal Wiring cb350 oem

I took the chance that the bars would fit and I wanted the switch wiring to replace the damaged wiring in my own switch -  don’t ask!

The knurled sections on the bars are too far apart to fit and they are much wider, at 29”, than the existing bars.

I checked out some wiring diagrams, starting with the 450, Bryan, but it wasn’t there.  On

http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/WiringDiagrams/MCwiring.php

though, I got a 350K4 schematic showing a Y and Y/W going to the switch.

The Y runs straight to the alternator, while the Y/W connects to W which also runs to the alternator. In the switch itself that are commented to terminals labeled “DY” and “SE”.

I guess I can just leave them hanging as they serve no purpose on the bike?

[The Lone Builder]

Note that both links you posted are to the same place.

Thanks Bodi; I fixed it.

[Alaxy Galaxy]

You could measure what happens between R/Y, Y/Wh and Y at rest and when you hit the start button. Should give you an idea.

The USA and Canada CB400F has three wires going to the start button. Bk is the 12V and is connected to the headlight (Bk/R) when at rest. When the button is pressed, the 12V (Bk) is disconnected to the headlight and connects to the the starter relay (Y/R) instead.

[The Lone Builder]

The resurrection is taking a bit longer than hoped. Partly, this is because I’ve only got my travel toolkit and have to borrow things like a blow torch, an impact driver and even a 1/2” drive ratchet. It is also because, as I’m sure many have experienced before, the further you proceed, the more you find needs doing.

Starting out as a quick reboot, I eventually decided that this would leave me with a bike I wasn’t happy with, so more was required. Problem was I don’t quite have the funds to do a complete job - re-chroming alone would cost the best part of £1,000!  So I decided, it’s powder coating all round.

Now the engine is out and half dismantled; all the black bits are cleaned and ready to be powder coated; and all the chrome bits are also ready to be powder coated. The rims and hubs will be powder coated also and I’m  getting a new set of spokes And the old ones were really rusty, several were bent/loose and the spoke nipples rusted solid.

Instruments were a problem. The ones on the bike were not the correct ones and therefore not worth renovating. I found a set on eBay, from Germany, that looked good, but too late, I discovered they weren’t right either, so they are going back. Finally I found a set in the US, and these will be on the way soon.

Most things are coming off relatively easily, apart from the last, of course, exhaust stud – some had been replaced by bolts, so I’m replacing the set – and several of the engine studs – I have a new set of cases to replace the damaged ones. The other things that were really problematic were the rear wheel damper bushes; the centres were easy, but the outer sleeves required lots of heat, a chisel and a heavy hammer.

Visiting a mate to use his blowtorch and other useful items introduced me to a new way to remove the lower shock bushes from the swing arm using a couple of sockets and a bench vice.

The alternator rotor was another eye-opener. Today I, finally got the alternator coils out – took 3 days soaking to remove the retaining screws, removed contact breaker plate etc and removed the clutch - even that was rusty!

[Bodi]

Hope your crank and transmission are clean! Remember that case halves should not be mixed!

[The Lone Builder]

I’ll be getting in there shortly. I have new cases that came with a crankshaft that I’ll be using. I am debating whether to use the new crank or the existing one?

I don’t want to dismantle the big ends to check bearings as I believe the connecting rod bolts/nuts are not supposed to be reused and I don’t really have the $200 needed to replace them, so I thought, as a halfway measure to check the main bearings and assume if these were OK, then the big ends would be OK also. 🤞 What do you guys think?

Meanwhile I got the clutch off and dismantled - pretty messy. The steel plates look as if they will clean up Ok, but can I clean and reuse the friction plates?

[bryanj]

They dont cost enough to risk it

[Tim2005]

Good plan on the main bearings, I'd do the same.

 I wouldn't reuse those clutch plates.

[Bodi]

With an unknown used crank and cases I would plastigauge the mains. If they're in spec I would be OK with trusting the big ends, but the big end bolts are not torque-to-yield and can be reused.

[bryanj]

If you had to replace bolts every time how could you plastigauge it? Con rod bolts are fine to reuse. If main shells have good surface and no damage also fine to reuse

[The Lone Builder]

Thanks.

To plastiguage big ends, you could use the old bolts to torque down and check clearance and then use the new ones to  rebuild. But happy to hear they are not torque-to-yield. I got this info from a Hack-a-Week video -

[/url] - around 13:00 mins. He’s normally quite reliable; if you’re sure about the reuse-ability of these I’ll let him know.

Elsewhere on the forum opinion seems to be divided on replacement. So I think I’ll stick to the plan - that’s a first on this project! 

Is the verdict on the clutch for both sets of plates or only the friction ones?

[The Lone Builder]

So today I completed the strip down of the engine; the only things to come off now are the one stuck exhaust stud and the stuck crankcase studs. Now that everything is in pieces, I’ll be taking them to a mate with a blow torch to apply some heat and hopefully these will move without too much trouble.

I got the cam chain adjuster mechanism out during the process and discovered a totally mangled cam chain tensioner bar. Is there any way to fix this? A replacement is not readily available as far as I can see.

[The Lone Builder]

Problems never come singly!

I was looking for the crankshaft bearing numbers to try to decide which crank I should use. I cannot find any numbers or letters on the crank! I’ve looked and looked, but nowt. I gave up finally and will try again tomorrow; they must be there somewhere.

That said, the markings on the con-rods were not too easy to see either. The numbers are 2121 from left to right, but there are no visible letters to indicate the weights either.

Finally, I took out the shells and found some strange markings - D7B-A on 1 and 5 and D6L-A on 2, 3 and 4 shells. The crankcase letters are BAAAA.

I’ve seen another post where it was suggested that these were aftermarket shells, but nothing concrete was established. In that case the different markings on the shells corresponded, in frequency anyway, to the crankcase letters, but this is clearly not so in my case.

So tomorrow I’ll be checking the markings on the replacement crank shells and also looking again for the crank markings.

[grcamna2]

subscribed

[bryanj]

Markings on shells mean nothing, there are markings on the crank you just have to find them

[Little_Phil]

Markings on shells mean nothing, there are markings on the crank you just have to find them

Try a torch/flashlight at various angles. Sometimes shows then up.

[The Lone Builder]

I have tried and tried, from every conceivable angle.

The only thing I can see, and even that is with a eye of strong faith, is the shadow shown in the pic. I can convince myself it’s a 2? But one number isn’t much use.

In contrast, the second pic shows the markings on the other crank I have. Think I’ll just use this one; it did come with the cases I plan to use.

[The Lone Builder]

Following on from my earlier clutch plate question. HAs anyone any experience with EBC plates?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fits-HONDA-CB-400-F-F1-F2-75-79-EBC-Heavy-Duty-Clutch-Plate-Kit-CK1140/400467870239?hash=item5d3dbec21f:g:sOUAAOSwrrleALZe

I can get a set of these for £46.05, or, I can get a set of OEM plates with springs and a gasket from David Silver for £54. Now I don’t need the gasket as I have to get a full gasket set, so the question is should I spend the extra, little as it is for the springs?

I haven’t measured the ones I have because changing them wasn’t in the plan, so I’ll see what’s they are like which might help with the decision.

I know it’s only another £8, but I’m trying to keep to a limited budget, and so many things are “just another few quid”, but several “fews” aren’t long adding up to quite a lot.

[grcamna2]

I have tried and tried, from every conceivable angle.

The only thing I can see, and even that is with a eye of strong faith, is the shadow shown in the pic. I can convince myself it’s a 2? But one number isn’t much use.

In contrast, the second pic shows the markings on the other crank I have. Think I’ll just use this one; it did come with the cases I plan to use.

That top/first picture almost looks like a faded '12'.., imo

[Nurse Julie]

Following on from my earlier clutch plate question. HAs anyone any experience with EBC plates?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fits-HONDA-CB-400-F-F1-F2-75-79-EBC-Heavy-Duty-Clutch-Plate-Kit-CK1140/400467870239?hash=item5d3dbec21f:g:sOUAAOSwrrleALZe

I can get a set of these for £46.05, or, I can get a set of OEM plates with springs and a gasket from David Silver for £54. Now I don’t need the gasket as I have to get a full gasket set, so the question is should I spend the extra, little as it is for the springs?

I haven’t measured the ones I have because changing them wasn’t in the plan, so I’ll see what’s they are like which might help with the decision.

I know it’s only another £8, but I’m trying to keep to a limited budget, and so many things are “just another few quid”, but several “fews” aren’t long adding up to quite a lot.

As you're in the UK, like myself, I would go with the David Silver clutch plates. EBC are also good and I have a few of them fitted to other bikes but you don't really need anything heavy duty on a 400/4.

[The Lone Builder]

I have progressed a fair bit now.

Everything is apart and the frame, wheels and other parts are off being powder coated.

The engine has been dismantled and I’m preparing to paint and polish it.

However I came across a problem which is probably related to the damaged cam chain adjuster mount on the case. The adjuster arm itself is mangled!

I found a replacement online, but the metal rod is damaged where the lock-bolt hits it. Then I found another but this time the plastic and metal end bit has come away from the rod.

Is the plastic supposed to be hard or soft – this one is hard – is my first question; I would imagine hard.

Secondly has anyone ever tried glueing this back together? If so, or even if not, what adhesive Would you recommend to do this?

[bryanj]

You can carefully file the lock bolt damage as its only for the bolt to tighten on it should, hopefully, be OK.
part number is 14550333000 but it has been discontinued so its going to be difficult to find.
I doubt glueing would work but maybe a locktited cheese head screw holding on a nylon block might work, you cant make it less usefull by trying