Author Topic: 750 k3 tranny issue?  (Read 4380 times)

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Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2020, 01:19:59 AM »
Is the nugget steel or aluminum?
Yeah, so it turns out it's alloy Scottly... what are your thoughts?
I rebuilt the top end and the pistons were good, I can't see any part of the casing that's missing a wee bit, haven't checked the bottom half of the two outside selector forks.

Also the gear I mentioned doesn't have anything like 8mm travel, see pic.


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Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2020, 01:20:54 AM »
No gear should have 8mm play but what is it when in the cases?
Actually only a mil or so. It seemed more

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Offline bryanj

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2020, 09:19:48 AM »
1mm is still a lot, is there a shim missing somewhere
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline trigger

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2020, 10:09:48 AM »
You can't go by a parts list or book when it comes to gear boxes. I have found many extra shims in 750 boxes that were fitted by the factory  ;)

Offline scottly

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2020, 12:51:49 PM »
Is the nugget steel or aluminum?
Yeah, so it turns out it's alloy Scottly... what are your thoughts?
I rebuilt the top end and the pistons were good, I can't see any part of the casing that's missing a wee bit, haven't checked the bottom half of the two outside selector forks.

Look on the inside of the cases where the screw holes for the side covers (alternator, shifter, clutch) are. These are "blind" holes, that don't go all the way through. If a screw that is too long has been fit, it can pop the bottom of the hole out, which leaves a small domed piece, usually found in the pan.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2020, 12:38:52 AM »
Is the nugget steel or aluminum?
Yeah, so it turns out it's alloy Scottly... what are your thoughts?
I rebuilt the top end and the pistons were good, I can't see any part of the casing that's missing a wee bit, haven't checked the bottom half of the two outside selector forks.

Look on the inside of the cases where the screw holes for the side covers (alternator, shifter, clutch) are. These are "blind" holes, that don't go all the way through. If a screw that is too long has been fit, it can pop the bottom of the hole out, which leaves a small domed piece, usually found in the pan.
That's a great heads-up thanks! So I've scoured the cases for this and unfortunately found nothing.
Guess I'm going to take more things out and keep looking...

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Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2020, 06:27:37 AM »
So looks like I've found the cause of my troubles... Too long (by 8mm) oil pan bolt had gone throu the casing under the final driven shaft and left that alloy nugget that was jamming up my neutral! Ffs!

Now the question is how to fix... It seems just the end has fractured out and not cracked the surrounding...

Strange that the bolt hole below is also through but it looks more like original casting  as it's a clean hole....

Could I get away with cleaning it all up, sanding it back and plugging with JB weld then using a spot of threadlock on the bolt maybe...?

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Offline bryanj

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2020, 06:32:21 AM »
That, along with a correct length bolt with copper sealing washer under the head and maybe some ptfe tape on the tread to stop wicking
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2020, 01:39:47 PM »
Plug with JB Weld after a good clean with acetone and cotton tops. It will grip into threads and not fall inside engine as long as a correct lenght of M6 bolt is used for oil pan.
Or block the inner part of hole  with a very short M6 stop screw, lock it with Loctite 648 or similar.
Or if you can find a thread insert with bottom as long as there is ok amount of goods left for an insert.
The thread might be bad, quick workaround was to use a longer bolt by PO?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 01:43:57 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2020, 06:10:33 PM »
I hope you're meaning 0.8mm play?
The top gear can move laterally up to 0.4mm without issues. The K4 and later engines had a spacer between teh bearing on that end, and the gear, selected to ensure that the engagement of the gear dogs are at least 3.0mm (or more) when shifted in.

With the appearance of the case-mating goo, it looks like the cases may not have been fully bolted together? If so, the final-drive shaft would wobble a bit, which never makes a constant-mesh tranny very happy...when I have to repair one of these where the chain was crashed thru the cases, it takes quite a bit of finessing of the weld-machine-weld-machine cycle to make sure the final-drive shaft stays parallele with the others. If it isn't, then there is a tight-loose-tight feeling to the final drive shaft when turning it. If the engine is run, it makes a slightl growling noise right there, too. That's because the teeth on the final-drive shaft are not mating parallel-ly (is that a word?) with the output of the mainshaft.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2020, 06:06:52 AM »
I hope you're meaning 0.8mm play?
The top gear can move laterally up to 0.4mm without issues. The K4 and later engines had a spacer between teh bearing on that end, and the gear, selected to ensure that the engagement of the gear dogs are at least 3.0mm (or more) when shifted in.

With the appearance of the case-mating goo, it looks like the cases may not have been fully bolted together? If so, the final-drive shaft would wobble a bit, which never makes a constant-mesh tranny very happy...when I have to repair one of these where the chain was crashed thru the cases, it takes quite a bit of finessing of the weld-machine-weld-machine cycle to make sure the final-drive shaft stays parallele with the others. If it isn't, then there is a tight-loose-tight feeling to the final drive shaft when turning it. If the engine is run, it makes a slightl growling noise right there, too. That's because the teeth on the final-drive shaft are not mating parallel-ly (is that a word?) with the output of the mainshaft.

Thanks for the great info Hondaman.

It is more like 1mm lateral play of the top gear though.... It does look like the k3 mainshaft (according to cmsnl, no 7? but it's a typo I think, meant to be 17 - thrust washer) also has a washer inbetween the bearing and gear, no? Is it ok to shim this further to reduce the play?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2020, 05:46:02 PM »
I hope you're meaning 0.8mm play?
The top gear can move laterally up to 0.4mm without issues. The K4 and later engines had a spacer between teh bearing on that end, and the gear, selected to ensure that the engagement of the gear dogs are at least 3.0mm (or more) when shifted in.

With the appearance of the case-mating goo, it looks like the cases may not have been fully bolted together? If so, the final-drive shaft would wobble a bit, which never makes a constant-mesh tranny very happy...when I have to repair one of these where the chain was crashed thru the cases, it takes quite a bit of finessing of the weld-machine-weld-machine cycle to make sure the final-drive shaft stays parallele with the others. If it isn't, then there is a tight-loose-tight feeling to the final drive shaft when turning it. If the engine is run, it makes a slightl growling noise right there, too. That's because the teeth on the final-drive shaft are not mating parallel-ly (is that a word?) with the output of the mainshaft.

Thanks for the great info Hondaman.

It is more like 1mm lateral play of the top gear though.... It does look like the k3 mainshaft (according to cmsnl, no 7? but it's a typo I think, meant to be 17 - thrust washer) also has a washer inbetween the bearing and gear, no? Is it ok to shim this further to reduce the play?

Try the parts fiche at South Sound Honda instead of CMNSL...I have found many errors in the CMNSL images.

The story on the gear is: beginning in the K4 engines (injection-molded cases began at K4) this looseness was finally documented and characterized into a prodcedue (on the production lines). The whole 'picture' is this: when the gearshift fork presses the adjacent (4th) gear into the top gear, it must have 3mm or more of gear dog engagement - this will show as witness marks on the dogs of the moving gear. When the insides of these cases would get too wide, the last gear on the end of the mainshaft could move away from the engaging dogs, and when the engine was hot, it had 2.0mm or less engagement. This makes it wear really fast because the gears then tilt. So, the shim washers came into being (in documentation and parts fiche for the post-K5 models, that is: they were often found anyway in the early engines) in 3 sizes of 0.1, 0.5 and 1.0mm thickness ('No shim' is also a valid thickness). This shim washer went onto the end of the shaft to push the last gear inward a bit to ensure a good 3+mm dog engagement when shifted up.

This tolerance wandering is due to the manual molds they used (even the injection molds were hand-operated), and depended to a large extent on how cooled the cases were (or weren't) when hand-removed from their molds. I have actually seen finger-shaped depressions (wide, like thick glove fingers) in the K0-K3 cases, making me wonder what Superman was standing that close to this steaming chunk of aluminum? I have also seen hand-corrected flat 'dents' where one was picked up, probably too hot, and dropped: the little fins were then quickly scraped back up into a fin shape, but not regular in form like the others. These are seen on the front lower parts of the engines from time to time, on those rudimentary-looking fins. The early cases that didn't "make it" were thrown back into the pot, so to speak, and in many of the early engines you can see the used and new metal mixed together, under the paint!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2020, 11:05:16 AM »
I hope you're meaning 0.8mm play?
The top gear can move laterally up to 0.4mm without issues. The K4 and later engines had a spacer between teh bearing on that end, and the gear, selected to ensure that the engagement of the gear dogs are at least 3.0mm (or more) when shifted in.

With the appearance of the case-mating goo, it looks like the cases may not have been fully bolted together? If so, the final-drive shaft would wobble a bit, which never makes a constant-mesh tranny very happy...when I have to repair one of these where the chain was crashed thru the cases, it takes quite a bit of finessing of the weld-machine-weld-machine cycle to make sure the final-drive shaft stays parallele with the others. If it isn't, then there is a tight-loose-tight feeling to the final drive shaft when turning it. If the engine is run, it makes a slightl growling noise right there, too. That's because the teeth on the final-drive shaft are not mating parallel-ly (is that a word?) with the output of the mainshaft.

Thanks for the great info Hondaman.

It is more like 1mm lateral play of the top gear though.... It does look like the k3 mainshaft (according to cmsnl, no 7? but it's a typo I think, meant to be 17 - thrust washer) also has a washer inbetween the bearing and gear, no? Is it ok to shim this further to reduce the play?

Try the parts fiche at South Sound Honda instead of CMNSL...I have found many errors in the CMNSL images.

The story on the gear is: beginning in the K4 engines (injection-molded cases began at K4) this looseness was finally documented and characterized into a prodcedue (on the production lines). The whole 'picture' is this: when the gearshift fork presses the adjacent (4th) gear into the top gear, it must have 3mm or more of gear dog engagement - this will show as witness marks on the dogs of the moving gear. When the insides of these cases would get too wide, the last gear on the end of the mainshaft could move away from the engaging dogs, and when the engine was hot, it had 2.0mm or less engagement. This makes it wear really fast because the gears then tilt. So, the shim washers came into being (in documentation and parts fiche for the post-K5 models, that is: they were often found anyway in the early engines) in 3 sizes of 0.1, 0.5 and 1.0mm thickness ('No shim' is also a valid thickness). This shim washer went onto the end of the shaft to push the last gear inward a bit to ensure a good 3+mm dog engagement when shifted up.

This tolerance wandering is due to the manual molds they used (even the injection molds were hand-operated), and depended to a large extent on how cooled the cases were (or weren't) when hand-removed from their molds. I have actually seen finger-shaped depressions (wide, like thick glove fingers) in the K0-K3 cases, making me wonder what Superman was standing that close to this steaming chunk of aluminum? I have also seen hand-corrected flat 'dents' where one was picked up, probably too hot, and dropped: the little fins were then quickly scraped back up into a fin shape, but not regular in form like the others. These are seen on the front lower parts of the engines from time to time, on those rudimentary-looking fins. The early cases that didn't "make it" were thrown back into the pot, so to speak, and in many of the early engines you can see the used and new metal mixed together, under the paint!
That really interesting stuff mate, especially re the case moulding and finger prints left on some of them.

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Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2020, 11:12:00 AM »
GODDAMNIT!! Just when I thought was starting to win getting this baby back together....I go and break my lifter plate print it back on. Was being so careful too and just started to get them snug and... TICK! Bollocks. Now gotta spend a small fortune on one

Was also wondering if the springs are stock size or upgrades... that might have contributed to the break?


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Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2020, 01:17:23 PM »
I have used the harder 501-66-04010 Barnett springs + bottom washers with stock CB750 K6 pressure plate without issue. No washers needed with the later K7/K8/F2 clutch and modified engine.

The thing is to tighten each bolt just a little, 1/4 turn each time in an even cross pattern.

I have made the mistake to tighten too much each time and cracked one ear. Long time ago.
Stressed to find a spare quickly.

Good to have extra parts! ;D
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2020, 02:42:09 PM »
I have used the harder 501-66-04010 Barnett springs + bottom washers with stock CB750 K6 pressure plate without issue. No washers needed with the later K7/K8/F2 clutch and modified engine.

The thing is to tighten each bolt just a little, 1/4 turn each time in an even cross pattern.

I have made the mistake to tighten too much each time and cracked one ear. Long time ago.
Stressed to find a spare quickly.

Good to have extra parts! ;D
Thanks Pewe, I see so these are upgraded Barnett springs, that's interesting... The benefit of longer springs being what, stiffer more positive clutch? Is it worth ditching the washers on this k3 to take some pressure of the plate? (when i can source one)

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Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2020, 09:05:28 PM »
I have got other springs that were shorter and much stiffer, really boring clutch feel. I think this was springs to K6 from VintageCB750.
Barnett springs to CB750 (shiny light surface) are relatively soft. My stock K2 got them since I had.

I have posted a photo where both models of Barnett springs are shown.
The lighter is for CB750, the darker for smaller CB's and harder. The partnumber tells the torque, 56 vs 66 ft lbs

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165531.msg1916669.html#msg1916669
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline nickfarrowdesign

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Re: 750 k3 tranny issue?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2021, 04:03:06 AM »
Hi folks, just thought I'd share the progress on my build, seems only right after all the help I've gotten from this forum.

So the engine's back in (again) after a bench test of the oil delivery/circulation went well after a few nervous minutes of cranking, showed oil squirting up into the rockers! Quite a milestone that felt.

Rebuilt carbs now on and getting towards the stage of being able to jury rig some power to the new 5ohm coils I finally managed to source and fire the old girl up for the first time, pretty exciting. Just need to try and separate the bloody downpipes from the collector box on this 4 into 1 Motad exhaust I've got so I don't upset the neighbors...

Anyway, thanks for the help so far, I'm sure I'll be quizzing you all some more in the coming weeks/months...
Easy now, stay upright!


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