Topic: This cb550 is going to be the death of me

[Jaroldoe10]

So... My cb550 project is killing me. I've been working on this thing for months. Rebuilt the engine and got it running. After running it seemed to have a slight oil seep from somewhere in between the cylinder and head. I took the head off and retorque the head bolts which where a little loose.. great right? Wrong! Now that I put it all together it wont even putt... WTH!!!! I've checked the timing. Seems to be spot on. Valves are adjusted. ( Question, do I need to get TDC on a special rotation? Like find 1 and four then pass it and land on it next rotation? IDK) it all seems right. What else can I do? It's kick only so I haven't used a starter. Thinking about attaching starter for the mean time. Any advice please. I've already rebuilt the carbs but I can't imagine they are gunked up again. I'm going to tinker but any advice here before I go bald before 40 would be appreciated.

[flatlander]

starting off with the usual question (sorry if this one's obvious but i don't know your background): do you have the original honda workshop manual and did you follow the described procedures for assembly and adjustment?

your oil leak could also be the rubber pucks between head and valve cover. they are often the cause of otherwise mysterious leaks.

assuming that you didn't do anything else than remove the head, what potentially could have gone wrong during re-assembly:
- camshaft timing
- valve adjustment

and what actually are the symptoms? does it turn over freely, does it have no compression, does it have no spark, no fuel...?
i wouldn't use a starter motor until you haven't narrowed down your problem.

[MauiK3]

TDC is on #1 compression

[Bodi]

I assume you took off the rocker cover, not the head. No reason to remove the cam chain or cam to retorque the head, as far as I know. But if you did, align the crank at T1-4 (doesn't matter which stroke, compression or exhaust) and set the cam correctly - not sure about a 550 but most cams either have a line to set parallel to the head. or a notch that goes straight up.

Just re/re'ing the top cover shouldn't make it fail to run. You can put it on and damage valves but that takes some unusual force that most people would notice.

Going back to basics you need fuel, spark, and compression. Confirm these. Plugs should be wet with fuel after kicking on choke a few times if it doesn't fire.
If you have all three, then ignition timing is a possibility. I would remove the coils to get into the top of the engine, did they get wired up correctly if you did? The engine usually spits fire out the carbs if this is backwards but not always.

[flatlander]

there is no need to remove the coils to get the rocker cover off on a 550.

[Jaroldoe10]

Great info everyone.... So, I did use the manuel, downloaded from this website... I did not damage the rockers when installing as I loosed the lock nuts, backed the screws all the way out and carefully tightened the cover on. You are correct, Sir, I did not remove the head, just the cover. How do I tell when #1 is at TDC "compression" stroke? I did look to make sure #1 was at TDC but I just rotated until I got close to the 1•4 mark. Is there a difference? If so I bet that 8s my issue. When I got the oil leak, it was not extremely significant. However, I figured just retorquing might be in order to get the 100%. Before retorquing, the engine ran like a charm. I'm sure it needed adjustments but I could get it to start one kick after it was warm. Two things, can someone point me to where I can get 1 a spark plug checker tool.... ( Can't believe I wrote that) and 2 a socket that would fit ... I sorta tightened them down with a normal socket and I can't get them back out. I can vaguely see smoke ( or fuel mist... IDK)pop out of #4 exhaust cylinder but the others don't have the same. I don't actually hear or smell and "ignition" but to be honest I don't think it's a spark issue. Not ruling it out but just not convinced based on how it ran. Thanks

[flatlander]

the "T" mark is where TDC is. it's the first mark on the points plate for any pair of cylinders.
if you're in doubt, you can verify with spark plugs removed by putting a feeler (e.g. screw driver) down the plug hole to check here the cylinder is at, while gently turning the crank.

if you are not sure how to find TDC then you may need to check again if your cam shaft is set correctly: at TDC the slot on its end needs to be parallel with the gasket surface of the head.

also check if you set the tappets correctly. the method described in the manual is a bit confusing. you can try this instead (not written by me, i just copied it  ):


First take out the sparkplugs so the engine will be safe to rotate using the 23mm nut under the points cover(-do not use this nut to rotate the engine with the plugs in as it is actually only as strong as the 10mm (M6) bolt holding it on!).
 In this case (adjusters have all been backed out) temporarily tighten the adjusters on the two #4 cylinders valves to eliminate all play.

Rotate the engine until you see the T / F 1.4 marking through the inspection hole in the points plate, now whilst closely watching #4's tappets (look into the two closest adjusting holes) rock the engine back and forth either side of the 1.4 timing mark (~10 o'clock to 2 o'clock) - If you are not seeing the tappets move rotate the engine one full turn back to where you see the 1.4 again and repeat - what you need to see is the exhaust tappet coming up just as the inlet tappet is going down for #4 - this indicates that #1 cylinder is on compression stroke so you can go ahead and adjust #1's tappets.

Rotate the engine half a turn only till the T 2.3 timing mark lines up and adjust #2's tappets

Rotate the engine half a turn only till the T 1.4 timing mark lines up and adjust  "4's tappets

Rotate the engine half a turn only till the T 2.3 timing mark lines up and adjust  "3's tappets

I would normally double check that cyl 3 tappets were rocking before adjusting cyl 2 and that cyl 1 tappets were rocking before adjusting cyl 4 and that cyl 2 tappets were rocking before checking cyl 3, but not really necessary (I got into the habbit of doing that because the Honda's firing order of 1-2-4-3 used to confuse the hell out of me when I was under the assumption it would be the more common 1-3-4-2!)


the best spark plug wrench for these bikes is the original honda tool. it allows you to reach also the ones in the middle which are hard to get to with other tools as they sit quite deep. you can get one from the usual sources or look up the part number and put it in an internet search.

you can check spark by holding a spark plug against the cylinder and firing the ignition. you should see a blue spark arcing between the plug and the cylinder.

[robvangulik]

I assume you took off the rocker cover, not the head. No reason to remove the cam chain or cam to retorque the head, as far as I know. But if you did, align the crank at T1-4 (doesn't matter which stroke, compression or exhaust) and set the cam correctly - not sure about a 550 but most cams either have a line to set parallel to the head. or a notch that goes straight up.

Just re/re'ing the top cover shouldn't make it fail to run. You can put it on and damage valves but that takes some unusual force that most people would notice.

Going back to basics you need fuel, spark, and compression. Confirm these. Plugs should be wet with fuel after kicking on choke a few times if it doesn't fire.
If you have all three, then ignition timing is a possibility. I would remove the coils to get into the top of the engine, did they get wired up correctly if you did? The engine usually spits fire out the carbs if this is backwards but not always.

Be careful, the 500/550 camshaft notch does NOT face up but front or rear!

[Jaroldoe10]

I may not have adjusted the tappets in the right stroke. I might have gotten lucky the first time around and when I put it back together I may have done it backwards. #1 thank you guys for the help. #2 the camshaft should be fine as it was running healthily before. I will re adjust the tappets and if this does not help then 8 will move toward checking the cam. Also, I was very meticulous with each step of the rebuild and make sure the cam was 💯 when installed. The cams notches faced front and rear. #3 I assume the spark plug should be on the out side of the cylinder head to check spark? Do I make contact or keep the spark plug like an 8th inch off?.... Again thanks flatlander and robvan and the rest of you all

[bryanj]

I hope you read the manual carefully and understood how to fit the cam cover without bending valves or thats what has happened

[Jaroldoe10]

I do not believe so. Each time I took the valve cover off I back off every tappet then when installing I make sure everyone moves up freely. Does this sound correct?

[bryanj]

Yes, maybe you are setting the clearances too tight its the only reason i can think of for loosing compression when hot

[Jaroldoe10]

Ok I looked at the tappets. They are serviceable, I checked the gaps both side are perfect. I had this running without messing with the cam shaft, I really don't want to take the cover back off especially because this bike was running fine. The spark plugs seemed wet but I checked and every one had spark.... Idk.... Obviously wet means unburn fuel but that doesn't make sense because the spark was present. Any other help oranbi helpless here?

[Jaroldoe10]

Hey, another note, I took the carb float bowls off. I had cleaned these thoroughly but used some honda bond to put them on as the gaskets were not form fitting so getting them on was a horrible experience. Well some got in the bowl. I'm going to clean them however like I said, the plugs were wet with fuel. Anyways I will clean these and look up some carb sync instructions. Any other input?

[Scott]

Do you have a new set of plugs you can try?

[Jaroldoe10]

I do not.... But I will get some. Do you recommend stock or a certain brand?

[jrmull]

Hi Jaroldoe10.  I feel your pain and currently in beer therapy to help cope.   

You are following the rules correctly...the last thing you mess with is where you start.  So confirming the valves and position is good.  All that carb stuff, not likely, but ok you looked.  You played with the carb.

For me, my problem was the condensers.  I left the ignition on too long and burnt one (them) out.  My story started with fiddling with oil leaks.  Re-torquing bolts especially around rubber gaskets.  Sort of fixed 5 leaks.  Oddly it started running badly.  Hum, maybe carb.  2 carb rebuild kits later, still an issue.  Wouldn't start / idle.  Redoing the static timing, I was slooow and very particular gettin the light to blink on on the F.  Dead on.  Well, that toasted 1-4 cyl condenser.  Sort of sparked.  Bike won't start well with on 2 of 4 cylinders working.  Bikes was dead from April to late July with all this monkey business.

Have a beer.  Relax.  If you are done with the torquing thing and valve stuff, move to the carb and reset the air mix screw to factory.  If your plugs get wet, you have gas making it there.  For electric, charge your battery up.  Mine is 13.80 but 12.80 is ok.  less not so great.  Replace your condensers and points.  $25 for a kit.  New plugs, sure.  You have to wait for the condensers anyway.  NKG brand is good.   

Once I changed the condenser, my bike started up great.   Go figure.   Months wasted.

And of course I moved on to other issues like my shifter is not down shifting to first smoothly.  Now my bike won't start well and 1-4 cyls are dead.  I'm messing with new coils now and switching to digital points after changing to digital rectifier/regulator.   As I find out all these parts are just fine, coil, regulator, etc.    This will be the death of me.

[Kevnz]

As far as I know, none of that should cook your condensors. They are there as a spark quench ( actually if you get into it a bit, the condensors and coils form a capacitive\inductive tuned circuit, but that's more complicated than we need to be) Effectively they arrest the spark across the points as they open, but if they have 12v applied to them, they will charge up, but not burn out. I suspect other causes.

[maxheadflow]

I agree with Kevnz.   The peak voltage across the cap/condenser while running is something like 100 volts when the field collapses in the coil. 12V ain't going to hurt the condenser.   What kills them is current, temps, and vibration.   I suspect the cheap ones have simple mechanical connection issues.

[markmyodb]

But Saving a 550 is worth the effort.

I also struggled with adjusting the valves, took two attempts to get them correct. initial adjustment had some tappet noise.

[Jaroldoe10]

Hey y'all, I still haven't  gotten to putting the carb back together. I'm going to soon and I hooked up the starter. Gunnar see if I can get it started that way. Have my tins in paint at the moment so it will be a little bit till I get to it. I will def try everything you guys wrote in here. Thank you all

[Jaroldoe10]

Some pics

[Jaroldoe10]

In case anyone cares

[Jaroldoe10]

Another

[wolf550]

choppers definitely look cool.
after I sell my 550's and move and don't get a 750... I think I would do a 550 chopper build.

[Jaroldoe10]

Cool man. I chose to do the 550 chopper because it didn't require a reservoir oil tank. I got my tins painted and am ready to do a spray max clear. I would definitely do this again, it's been a fun build. Unfortunately I've been rushing because part of me thinks I can get this complete by the summer.... The other part says ur out of your mind if you think that's gunnar happen.... Looks like I pull more to my optimistic side. I'll post pics of tins

[Jaroldoe10]

Tins. Cobalt blue spray metalic

[Jaroldoe10]

some updated pictures

[Jaroldoe10]

cant do them all at once sorry

[Jaroldoe10]

Hey yall, The bike starts and runs and I just wanted to post some pictures so you guys can see where I am at. Im on another thread figuring out the charging system and all i got left is that and headlights. I used the altima wiring kit which was an awesome alternative for a wiring harness. its $140.00 i would purchase again if I needed to. all the fuses (besides the main fuse, which I used a breaker for) are inside the unit and all switches are operated by monetary switches. no relays, no glass fuses, no complicated wires going to who knows where. simplistic and neat. here are some pics

[wolf550]

Very cool sir

[Shtonecb500]

i just installed those on a 750 build, they are great.