Topic: 71' CB500 Four Points Gap and Static Timing

[4banger71]

Hello All!

I'm new to the forum but have been spending some time this summer restoring a 71' CB 500 Four. I bought the bike from a friend who was moving out of Province and decided to put some work into it before getting on it for the first time.

Anyways I'm at a point where I'm assembling and doing the static timing / points gap. I noticed one of my points contacts is a little loose, is this something I should worry about / get replaced, or should I go on and gap it according to it in a slacked position?
I tried doing the static timing first (I know now I should've started with the points gap) and I couldn't get the test light to go on anywhere near the fire mark on 1-4. If i advance the motor a little past the T 1-4 mark the light goes on but its just out of reach of the adjustment plate. Once I got to that point i realized the points gap should've been done first and now I'm here.

Ill attach some photos of the contact point, it doesn't look all that bad in photos but it is loose. The other point is nice and tight.
Let me know what you think regarding the timing light as well as the point, I appreciate any and all help!

Cheers!

[Flyin900]

Those are cheap aftermarket points and show signs of arcing and burning on the edges. The gap is too large, or at least appears to be so in the pic. The spec for the points gap is .012-.016mm in the Honda manual from my best recollection. You can download the Honda service manual from the site under the Technical documents section and is a must have for working on any bike IMO.

I would find a set of real Honda OEM points the ND (Nippon Denso) OEM units. It is also likely the capacitors are cheap Chinese junk too and there have been discussions on how the condensers from China are junk and can cause running issues. I can't see them well enough in your pics to tell.

I don't think Honda still has these parts new, so EBay may be your option for the points, as their available on there. The condensers are another story, as I am looking for a set presently and most of the EBay ones are the Chinese stuff. A few sellers may have them such as CMS in Holland, yet they are silly expensive. So I too am searching for a deal somewhere on those items.

[HondaMan]

That loose contact pad is toast. Those are probably the Chinese-made Daiichi points, I have seen their pads come off like that before. They just spot-weld them on, which requires the parts be absolutely clean first - which thet weren't.

Best bet: contact Honda directly for a genuine TEC brand points plate assembly, complete. Reason: it will work 100% and last many years. All the other brands of these parts today are either junk out of their box, or fail within 100 miles (condensors).

[bryanj]

Gap is 14 THOU or 0.35mm not what was quoted above and if you want it to run corrent no tolerance allowes

[4banger71]

Thanks for the replies

Flyin900 and bryanj:
Thank you for the spec, I do have the manual and am using it, but I loosened the adjustment screw for the purpose of showing the loose contact point

Flyin900 and Hondaman:
I don't know exactly the condenser brand but I can imagine they were bought from 4into1 as I got some spare parts with the bike all from there.
I actually work at a Honda manufacturing plant so I will take some time and look for some genuine parts from a later model, but last I checked there was nothing available for parts before 1975 or so. I know these Carey over for a few years so maybe I'll get lucky.

Thanks for the suggestions, do you reckon adjusting the points gap properly will help with my static timing not lining up?

Thank you!

[bryanj]

Yes it will and the points and condensers from all years of sohc with points are the same

[RAFster122s]

4 into 1 will sell the cheap Chinese crap Daiichi points and condensers. So, they are guilty of pushing junk as well asOK quality parts.

[4banger71]

Awesome thank you,

Looked through the parts order form at work and seems like I can get my hands on a whole assembly,
Part No. 30200-323-005 OEM

Never ordered a part from here, and something as old as this could definitely have some lead time. Although I have a bunch of parts I ordered from 4into1, might be worth looking into what other carry over parts I might change (carb boots could use a refresh I guess) 

Seems like a fairly easy replacement overall. In the mean time I think I will gap and do timing as is just to get her up and running, I have a move coming up at the end of this month and having one in tact bike would be much easier than lugging around all my spare parts. Won't have the thing insured until next summer anyway but I'll have to find storage for the winter so I won't be doing much work throughout.

Will update with how the current timing goes after work today... Thanks for the help and wish me luck!

Cheers

[HondaMan]

Awesome thank you,

Looked through the parts order form at work and seems like I can get my hands on a whole assembly,
Part No. 30200-323-005 OEM

Never ordered a part from here, and something as old as this could definitely have some lead time. Although I have a bunch of parts I ordered from 4into1, might be worth looking into what other carry over parts I might change (carb boots could use a refresh I guess) 

Seems like a fairly easy replacement overall. In the mean time I think I will gap and do timing as is just to get her up and running, I have a move coming up at the end of this month and having one in tact bike would be much easier than lugging around all my spare parts. Won't have the thing insured until next summer anyway but I'll have to find storage for the winter so I won't be doing much work throughout.

Will update with how the current timing goes after work today... Thanks for the help and wish me luck!

Cheers

You may be able to find a leftover TEC points plate assembly from before last year. We just contacted Honda to ask them to bring back some of the parts that disappeared just since the whole Kung Flu thing started. I am sure they lost all their supply chains like everyone else did, and for now they just marked "discontinued" on any parts for these bikes made before 2001. They did this in the early 2000s era, too, and we talked them back into the supplies of critical parts we had until last year: Sochiro Honda was famous for saying (many times) that "Honda will ALWAYS supply all the critical parts for their motorcycles [to ensure brand support and rider loyalty]", and we've been pretty successful at reminding Honda of this from time to time. They hold their founders and elders in high regard (not a bad practice, says this elder...   ).

[4banger71]

HondaMan,

I put the order in for some parts, i should hear back in the next few days if they are available or not (order form doesn't cross reference availability)

Anyways I didn't get around to doing the timing today. I did my tappet clearances and got the breather cover on.
I figured now was a good time to change that oil pan gasket
broke one of the bolts (I'll bring left handed drill bits with me next time I work on it) but the rest came out fine.
I found inside that the starting clutch, primary chain, and starter gear have quite a bit of L/R play on the shaft...
Seems like the primary chain has been also been hitting up against the case and has scored a profile in the case. can't see this as being any good...

I will be taking it apart when I get the chance to see if it might just be the bearings, heres hoping.
Is this common at all? Any suggestions? Seems like this is one of those things that may not fail, but if it does it will fail catastrophically.

Hard to see the profile the chain has cut out but pic related.

Cheers

[bryanj]

Its very common for the 500 primary chain to eat into the oil gallery. Only cure is a new one and change the damper rubbers in primary gear at same time.
A Kawasaki chain is identical and nearly 1/2 the price of the Honda one

[HondaMan]

A Kawasaki chain is identical and nearly 1/2 the price of the Honda one

Good to know, Bryan! What is the Kawi part number?

[bryanj]

I will check for you and find out

[bryanj]

Part number 920571011 for genuine Kawasaki chain, fits 400 and 550 as well

[Deltarider]

If it was very common I would know it. So first verify if replacement is needed. Mine is still original at 138.000 kms and I have knowledge of some who have had it for over 200.000 kms, whereas some Germans, who have replaced that chain in a desire to quiet the engine somewhat, had the same noise return after only a few thousand kms...

[bryanj]

We have had this discussion before Delta and every one ive opened up was wearing into the oil gallery and if you have the cases split ts worth it

[dave500]

deltas bike has the power to repair itself,every day he wakes up its brand new again,the points self adjust and carbs are auto syncing!

[Deltarider]

What is wrong with adding information, that can be verified btw, to have a balanced view on the matter? Why would one immediately feel, his or her expertise is questioned?
Yes, if you go in there all the way, you may as well replace that chain, if not, I wouldn't undertake it to - as some Germans have found out - arrive at the same amount of play after less than 8000 km.
Dave, I think I have shown on quite some occasions, maintenance can be done more efficient than following what manuals present. Look up how you can simply monitor the ignition, how you can verify the fuel levels in your carbs and, well I can go on...

[4banger71]

Thank you guys for all the insight, very helpful stuff!

The case isn't exactly split, this is just me taking the oil pan out and looking in, engine is still on frame and I had just finished putting the top end back together so if taking it all apart again is involved, I might take the delta approach and let it be for now. 
I will still take the side covers off to inspect and look into the chain and damper rubbers regardless before I commit to leaving it...

I'm not opposed to taking the thing apart down the road for whatever is necessary, I picked this bike up for the fun(?) of rebuilding and learning. I'm no stranger to car repair but I've never fully taken an engine apart so this has been a great experience so far.

Thanks for all the help guys, really appreciate it!

[RAFster122s]

To access the primary drive rubbers you have to have the crank out is my understanding…

[bryanj]

You have to have the crank out to change the chain you just have to split the cases to do the rubbers

[Little_Phil]

Gap is 14 THOU or 0.35mm not what was quoted above and if you want it to run corrent no tolerance allowes

You may well be correct from experience, but Flyin quote from the Honda shop manual is correct 12-16.

[HondaMan]

Gap is 14 THOU or 0.35mm not what was quoted above and if you want it to run corrent no tolerance allowes

You may well be correct from experience, but Flyin quote from the Honda shop manual is correct 12-16.

The .012"-.016" spec is the "running tolerance" range. It is derived as:
- where the [charging] dwell for the coils is still adequate at 0.016" and 10,000 RPM engine speed.
- where the back-EMF spark ("arcing") from the coil will self-extinguish quickly enough to provide adequate residule spark energy from the coil at 10,000 RPM.

The nominal value of 0.014" (midrange) is where the value of the inductance of the coil and the capacitance of the condensors (0.024uF) are resonant at midrange RPM of 5000, causing most of the condensor's energy to be returned to the coil to prolong the spark at it's best RPM, usually 6000 in these engines. That's why you can feel the 'perfect' tune of a (young) engine at those settings.

...but, that's trivia mostly discussed at roadraces where the factory reps showed up...