Author Topic: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables  (Read 2652 times)

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Offline ts354

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Tried to start my old CB650 the other day.  I drained the battery trying to start it.  (It was kinda weak to begin with)  Put some jumpers on it, and got it started.  Then when I took the jumper cable off, it died immediately.  I did it a couple more times and same result.

Does anyone have a good idea where I should start to look to solve this problem?  I'm not the best with electrical.

Thanks in advance!
Todd

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2021, 06:36:21 AM »
Charge the battery.  Have it tested.  Replace if necessary.

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Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2021, 07:17:18 AM »
I'll give it a goo when I get home tonight.

Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2021, 07:56:40 AM »
CB650s act just horribly if the battery is not fully charged and in great shape. Get a charger/tender, take it to a shop for then to test, or just get a new battery. Either way you should get a battery tender for stretches when your don't ride for a few weeks.
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Offline pekingduck

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2021, 11:32:28 AM »
Since the bike starts, it probably has at least 10+ volts. If you have a voltmeter, check battery voltage with the key off, and then again as it's running.  If voltage does not get higher as it is revved a bit, the problem is a charging system one, and may be as simple as worn brushes. 

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2021, 06:55:53 PM »
Before start and while running at 3k +.

Where the hell are my pics?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 06:57:33 PM by ts354 »

Offline scottly

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2021, 08:05:03 PM »
Since the bike starts, it probably has at least 10+ volts.
It only started while being jumped. ::)
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Offline scottly

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2021, 08:07:49 PM »
Before start and while running at 3k +.

Where the hell are my pics?
Screw the pics, what did the meter read?
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Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2021, 06:12:57 AM »
12.40 volts after charging all day.
11.83 while running at 3k+ and consistantly dropping a hundredth of a volt every 3 seconds.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 07:53:20 AM by ts354 »

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2021, 07:56:44 AM »
Found the pics.

Offline MauiK3

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2021, 07:58:31 AM »
Dead battery and perhaps faulty charging system
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Offline scottly

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2021, 09:44:48 AM »
faulty charging system
Fixed it for you. ;)
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Offline pekingduck

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2021, 12:08:04 PM »
Because the voltage is decreasing from 11.83 constantly, the charging system isn't working. 
If you unplug the alternator, there should be 3 yellow wires from the alternator, and a white and a black wire that supply power/ground to the brushes. With the meter on the ohms scale, should be around 6 ohms between the white and black. 

Checking between the yellows, there should be continuity between any 2 pair of yellows, but no continuity from any yellow to the black or white, or to ground.  Let us know what you find.

Battery also should have taken and held a charge over 13 volts, may still be okay if charging system fixed.

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2021, 07:58:52 PM »
Unplug what from where??????

Man I'm trying.  .....  when some one says alternator, I think of a car alternator.

The wires from the stator go to the "finned" thing.  There is no plugs to un plug.  From there they go to two little square things next to the battery. 

I'm telling you I'm a freaking idiot.



« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 08:05:09 PM by ts354 »

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2021, 08:24:53 PM »
Just a little rant here.

I find it hard to believe that every cb650 out there has to have 13.666 volts or else it wont run.  This bike has 20 Thousand miles on it.  I guarantee that every one of those miles weren't 13+ volts. How did it darn thing get here this long?  How did it make it off the show room floor?  I probably own 5 sealed batteries and I think all of them charge to 12.7 volts.  Two are race bikes.  An R6 and a GSXR750.   They run fine.  I have a cb450 1970 model.  I has a lead acid battery that will only charge to 10 volts.  Guess what, it runs fine.  One kick and I can ride all day.  What the heck makes these 650's so freaking finicky?  Honda should have made an aux diesel powered generator to strap on the back or extra long 220v dryer cords that were miles long to keep good power to the battery.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 08:33:05 PM by ts354 »

Offline pekingduck

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2021, 12:04:17 AM »
First picture is of the 2 igniter boxes that send power to the coils for spark.  Not there.

Second pic is regulator that is plugged into the main wiring harness, where the juice from the 3 yellow wires ends up eventually.  Not there.  It's at the plug-in for that group of wires.

Third is of the generator brushes. Not exactly there.

=============================================================

Trace the wires coming out of that left side cover (see my pic 1), and they will eventually plug into the main wiring harness regulator (my pic 2), unplug it and check those wires.

Before you put the cover back on check the condition of the 2 slip rings - ideally, they should be copper colored. (my pic 3). If they are dark, clean them with a pencil eraser.  Don't use sandpaper or anything rough - that will wear out the brushes.

Here is how most charging systems work.  A magnet on the end of the crank (the rotor) spins very closely around 3 sets of stationary wire windings (the stator) bolted to the cover or the engine case.  This creates AC voltage (the yellow wires) that end up at the regulator, which turns it into DC to charge the battery. 

What look like thin, bare copper wires are actually coated for insulation, so they do not make contact with adjacent wires. By checking for continuity between each pair of yellow wires at the plug (left and middle, right and middle, and left and right), you are checking there is no open circuit. 

By checking each yellow wire, at the plug, to ground (like the cover when it's bolted down, or anywhere on the engine) you're checking for a short.  Hopefully the stator checks out okay.

Here's where things get a little complicated.  All of Honda's earlier singles and twins, and on almost everything made after 1985, the rotors used permanent magnets.   On these SOHC CB650s  the rotors are electromagnets, meaning they have no magnetic power until electricity is put through them.

This is done through the brushes rubbing on the slip rings, which attach to the 2 ends of the rotor windings.  One brush gets 12 volts from the battery (via the regulator), the other brush goes to ground - and now it's a spinning magnet.

So the brushes have to be long enough to be making contact against clean slip rings, and there has to be continuity (about 5-7 ohms resistance) between the 2 slip rings of the electromagnet.

The regulator monitors battery voltage, and prevents it from taking too much voltage, say around 14 volts.  When it gets too high, too long, rather than boil the battery, it cuts the voltage to the slip ring, so it is no longer a magnet.

CB650s with these brushes (same as on all '79-'83 DOHC inline fours and the CBX) all suffered from this good design in theory, not so much in actual practice.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 09:50:59 AM by pekingduck »

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2021, 03:59:49 AM »
OMG Thank you so much.  That helps a bunch! 

Okay, I have a better understanding, I will go back out to the garage this a.m. and find those wires and report back.

Thanks again!
Todd

Offline david 750f

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2021, 07:51:40 AM »
Pekingduck, excellent pics and explanation.
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Offline goodtryer

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2021, 08:14:59 AM »
Pekingduck, excellent pics and explanation.

Outstanding explanation!
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Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2021, 08:16:21 AM »
After much cussing and throwing a tool, investigated the taped over hump in the wiring harness.

And found this.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2021, 09:12:04 AM »
That would do it. You need decent heavy connections there
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Offline pekingduck

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2021, 09:35:23 AM »
My mistake. The stator wires actually do plug right into the regulator, no harness in between.  This type of failure is common to a lot of bikes.  The heat from the stator output (yellow wires) melts the wires at the connectors, which are the weak point.  This has been repaired before. The black and white wires aren't a problem, they just got melted by the yellow wires. You should still do the recommended tests before you re-connect the wires.

Doesn't matter which yellow wire - treat them the same.  Soldering the yellow wires together would be the best solution by far.  Just make sure you have plenty of heat shrink tubing and/or tape to keep them apart.   Regular bullet or spade connectors for the white and black wires is fine.

If no soldering gun available, I would use wire twist nuts as used in electrical work, preferably ceramic ones, for 16 gauge wires.  Make sure the wires are clean, and you tape the wires to the connector firmly.  These nuts are used where vibration is non-existent so taping wire to the nut is a must.   Many will cringe, but the original spade and bullet crimp connectors have already failed.

Wire nuts are a distant, second-best connection choice, but crimp connectors are much worse in this application.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 09:54:58 AM by pekingduck »

Offline ts354

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2021, 11:02:40 AM »
Peking, You have been more than helpful.  I have it running now.  I did clean and do the ohm test on the copper bands of the rotor.  I think it was 4.3 or 4.7.  Anyway the bike runs and charges now.  I did put in a lightweight connector.  I probably should change that out to a heavy duty one or solder the wires together, or even wire nut them like you said.   

I had no idea someone had been in there before and did not see the hump in the harness until I got it out away from the frame and into some decent light.

I'm going to go for a quick spin, hope I get back without pushing it back.   :) :) :) :)

Offline pekingduck

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2021, 11:16:01 AM »
If the connectors are of good quality, you might be fine.  Remember to check them, and if they dis-color or seem to be getting hot, it needs a better solution.

Just keep riding uphill so you can coast back home.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 04:29:32 AM by pekingduck »

Offline scottly

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Re: 1980 CB650 Electrical Problems - Wont run after removing jumper cables
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2021, 07:46:39 PM »

CB650s with these brushes (same as on all '79-'83 DOHC inline fours and the CBX) all suffered from this good design in theory, not so much in actual practice.
Actually, car alternators since the '60s use the same design, but for some reason it took Honda a while to figure it out. :(
I was on a trip from the central coast of CA to Pike's Peak in 1979, with 3 friends, 2 of which were on CBX's. On the second day, in Nowhere Nevada, one of the CBX's charging system quit, so we pulled out the headlight fuse to limp into the nearest town. A short time later, the other CBX's charging system failed. It turned out the outer brushes were both worn out. Both bikes only had 8-9K miles on them. We had to modify some replacement brushes from an electric motor shop, as even if there was a Honda shop nearby, they wouldn't have stocked the brushes. Honda made updated brushes of a harder material, but they weren't available for months.
(Sorry for the threadjack ts ;D
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