Author Topic: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?  (Read 3695 times)

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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2021, 10:29:35 PM »
Are you aware that the key switch has three positions?
Off - On - and park. The later will stop the engine and allow key removal but leaves the tail light on to drain the battery, which I have experienced a few times. ::)

Cheers,

I had learnt this the hard way. Those days my tail light was fused, so i didnt get a visual clue. Ended up having to jump the bike from a car, such a bad bad thing to do

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2021, 05:17:55 AM »
Delta, blah blah blah
Go away, your bike is perfect, everyone knows it, your maintenance procedures are perfect, your bike never being neglected never had to come back some into a normal state of repair like his needs to...
 just go away as you are not helpful
OK, let's hope you can appreciate some facts. First of all, just read the replies by the OP concerning his riding habits. Is this also 'blah, blah, blah'? His CB550K was built the same year, my CB500K2 was assembled and - guess what - his wiring harness is exactly the same my model has. Not only that, all the electric components are identical, be it that on my model the orange/white and lightblue/white wires end blind in the headlamp bucket and were not connected to any gadget lights. We had a 55/60Watts H4 however. Also that dreadful headlamp-always-on-arrangement is missing. See? But I'll be a sport. Find me a thread or even a post in the UK, German, French or the Italian forum, where a systemic deficiency of the CB500/550 charging system has been the topic.
In the past I've given lots of serious advice on how to save on power. If people choose not to follow it up, that's not my responsibilty.
And no, my bike is not perfect and does not repair itself. In the near future I will have to replace the camchain and its tensioner for the third time. Now, how many here can say that? ;D
Dielectic grease? I know nobody who uses that and in all the articles concerning maintenance of the electric system there's been no mentioning of it.
Maybe you yourself could try to be of help and bring some good advice. So far your often slanderous contributions have been below par. Thank you very much.
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2021, 06:02:10 AM »
Delta, silicone grease wasn't patented until 1987 when it first began to appear in the manufacture of cars, trucks and motorcycles.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4842753A/en

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/parts/pro-honda-dielectric-grease-p

You don't need to know anyone who uses this product. It is the industry standard for anti-corrosion in electrical systems. This stuff came out while I was in high school, everyone I know uses it. It may just be the times we live in. I see changes out there that I'm not willing to become a part of, and I respect your opinion on the topic.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 06:05:36 AM by Alan F. »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2021, 08:24:26 AM »
All connectors on our bikes are well shielded against ingress of moisture. BTW, I remember that back in the day this was immediately recognised by professionals as a major improvement over what we had before on motorcycles. Ofcourse some minor corrosion is unevitable, due to the difference in potential between copper and tin. Personally, I doubt grease can help much here. On the other hand, just unplug and plug the connector (maybe a few times) can work miracles.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 08:35:15 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2021, 10:23:14 AM »
All connectors on our bikes are well shielded against ingress of moisture.

For those that put stock in the above statement, I'll warn that this is pure fiction or more likely wishful thinking.  While the connectors have electrical shields on many, it is certainly not all, and "shields" has a different meaning than "sealed", which they are not.  Further, the shields are plastic, so heat and low humidity, makes them harden and shrink over time.  Ever work on a 70's Honda that lived 20 or more years in the desert?  Rust is not much of an issue, but anything plastic based is well deteriorated, often cracked and shrunk.  Environment plays a key role in the viable life of most machines, in operation or not, garaged protected or not.

Fuse contacts are connections.  Not sealed.
Headlights have connectors.  Not sealed.
The 4 way connectors in the headlight bucket are not sealed.
None of the block connectors are hermetically sealed.
Switch contacts on the bike are not sealed from the elements.

Tin contacts corrode in the presence of moisture, oxygen, and impurities.  Unless your connections are hermetically sealed, they oxidize and form a resistive film over time.

Connector technology, and indeed, improvement is plastic formulations has improved, most notably in the 80's when computer tech invaded the automotive industry.  The low voltages and currents these devices operate on made any signal loss or voltage loss critical for reliability concerns.  Enter the sealed connectors now pervasive in modern machines.  70's Hondas were sold before this availability, so they suffer from connection deterioration, with severity of deterioration commensurate with the environment in which they experienced.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2021, 12:01:49 PM »
His CB550K was built the same year, my CB500K2 was assembled and - guess what - his wiring harness is exactly the same my model has. Not only that, all the electric components are identical, be it that on my model the orange/white and lightblue/white wires end blind in the headlamp bucket and were not connected to any gadget lights. We had a 55/60Watts H4 however. Also that dreadful headlamp-always-on-arrangement is missing. See?

I have been hunting for a reproduction harness for my mc, and so far was not able to locate one, folks keep yelling me it is a one year model and hence hard to find. Are you saying a '76 500k harness fits? That would he a very good news for me, as i would have more things to search for.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2021, 01:00:36 PM »
His CB550K was built the same year, my CB500K2 was assembled and - guess what - his wiring harness is exactly the same my model has. Not only that, all the electric components are identical, be it that on my model the orange/white and lightblue/white wires end blind in the headlamp bucket and were not connected to any gadget lights. We had a 55/60Watts H4 however. Also that dreadful headlamp-always-on-arrangement is missing. See?
I have been hunting for a reproduction harness for my mc, and so far was not able to locate one, folks keep yelling me it is a one year model and hence hard to find. Are you saying a '76 500k harness fits? That would he a very good news for me, as i would have more things to search for.
Unfortunately for you, I have not seen one on offer, but I have looked no further than CMSNL and yes, the wire harnass (PN: 32100-374-700) as well as the sub harnass (PN: 32105-374-700) of the CB550K2 and the European CB500K2 are identical. It's true the fuses and their clamps can need attention. The rest described above is a bit exaggerated IMO. There is absolutely no need to take everything apart. My bike has seen the heat of Greece and Spain, but if I read all the above, I clearly must have done something wrong  ;), because in over 40 years I have not encountered another electrical problem than the IGN key switch and the fuse clamps that needed to be cleaned. The latter I had to do, when on a trip in the German Schwarzwald, one fuse after the other blew. Connectors headlamp are spotless. No wonder: the mere replacing  of the bulb a couple of times will already clean the contacts. BTW, a simple V-drop measurement can locate a problem easily. IMO you learn more from doing such a test to arrive at a pinpoint diagnose, than replace just all, but that's my opinion. See it as an investment in yourself.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 01:28:58 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2021, 09:45:16 PM »

I have been hunting for a reproduction harness for my mc, and so far was not able to locate one, folks keep yelling me it is a one year model and hence hard to find. Are you saying a '76 500k harness fits? That would he a very good news for me, as i would have more things to search for.
IMO you learn more from doing such a test to arrive at a pinpoint diagnose, than replace just all, but that's my opinion. See it as an investment in yourself.

That is a 100% my attitude, the whole point of buying this bike was not to rip it apart but preserve it with minimal mods. It is juat that i lack knowledge, which i intend to gain.

I started this other thread, it is about the same problem, i made slight progress in debugging, perhaps you can chime in.

Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2021, 09:56:50 PM »
Unfortunately for you, I have not seen one on offer, but I have looked no further than CMSNL and yes, the wire harnass (PN: 32100-374-700) as well as the sub harnass (PN: 32105-374-700) of the CB550K2 and the European CB500K2 are identical.

The euro edition is also not available as far as I can tell, if you find a reproduction harness please share a link.

How about the 550F or a 550k from another year?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2021, 04:00:58 AM »
Amitr0, what battery do you have?
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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2021, 11:07:13 AM »
Amitr0, what battery do you have?

It is a powersport regular lead acid one, I do have access to a Motobatt AGM for tests, if required, a friend has it and is willing to lend it for tests.

Offline SWACKED

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2022, 08:49:18 PM »
Hello all,

Newbie here, was there any updates to this thread? I picked up a 74 CB550 a few months back and the PO had upgraded the AGM batter to the slim Antigravity battery (also installed reg/rectifier). I found myself warming-up the bike for a couple minutes while I would put the ridding gear on, and I would come out a a dead battery. I initially thought I had a short or issue with the charging system, which troubleshooting eliminated both theories. I eventually took the bike in to a local shop and the folks there relayed that, specifically, lithium batteries (while at idle) will die in the matter of minutes. Have you guys also experienced the same? 

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2022, 08:58:49 PM »
Lithium batteries just aren't very forgiving. Get yourself a cheap AGM and keep the revs up.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2022, 09:57:10 PM »
Hello all,

Newbie here, was there any updates to this thread? I picked up a 74 CB550 a few months back and the PO had upgraded the AGM batter to the slim Antigravity battery (also installed reg/rectifier). I found myself warming-up the bike for a couple minutes while I would put the ridding gear on, and I would come out a a dead battery. I initially thought I had a short or issue with the charging system, which troubleshooting eliminated both theories. I eventually took the bike in to a local shop and the folks there relayed that, specifically, lithium batteries (while at idle) will die in the matter of minutes. Have you guys also experienced the same?

74 has a lighting switch.  Don’t need lights while warming up. Turn off lighting while it idles.  I never needed a warm up on my 74.  Put on riding gear, start and go, gradually taking off choke during warm up. No heavy power, until choke is off.  But, it does sound like your battery is too small, or your lighting and ignition is drawing too much power

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline eldar

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2022, 05:16:34 AM »
I had a battery test voltage fine, which should read right about 12.6, each cell is 2.1 volts, and there are 6 cells. I've never had a battery read of 12.7 after sitting overnight after a charge. An accurate resting voltage needs time after charging.

Anyways, voltage was fine, but as soon as a load was applied, it dropped to 0. It was a brand new battery filled and charges that day.

And as stated these connectors are not shielded in the least. Amd just unplugging/plugging the connector a few times, won't do any lasting good. That corrosion will be slightly scraped up and allow a bit more contact, but only for a short while. A good cleaning is needed, or better, connector replacement. And now you could use sealed connectors, if you want.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 05:31:37 AM by eldar »

Offline Mr. Mike

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2022, 06:31:02 PM »
Delta, blah blah blah
Go away, your bike is perfect, everyone knows it, your maintenance procedures are perfect, your bike never being neglected never had to come back some into a normal state of repair like his needs to...
 just go away as you are not helpful

Gee…
As this post was? I don’t detect any friendly sarcasm either.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2022, 04:14:26 AM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.
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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2022, 04:59:42 AM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.

That is very interesting. So the test required here would be ride the bike for 30 mins and then put a multimeter to the battery terminals while running and see if increasing RPMs increase voltage?

Is there a better way to test stator outputs?

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2022, 06:02:55 AM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.

That is very interesting. So the test required here would be ride the bike for 30 mins and then put a multimeter to the battery terminals while running and see if increasing RPMs increase voltage?

Is there a better way to test stator outputs?

That case was like hen's teeth, dont bet on it.  Youo can get an electronic monitor and watch the voltage while riding. 

https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Capacity-Indicator-Lead-Acid-Motorcycle/dp/B07V2KMQGQ?th=1
Prokop
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2022, 06:48:44 AM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.

That is very interesting. So the test required here would be ride the bike for 30 mins and then put a multimeter to the battery terminals while running and see if increasing RPMs increase voltage?
Yes, or hold your hand in front of the headlight and rev.
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Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2022, 11:04:15 PM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.

That is very interesting. So the test required here would be ride the bike for 30 mins and then put a multimeter to the battery terminals while running and see if increasing RPMs increase voltage?
Yes, or hold your hand in front of the headlight and rev.

I will definitely try this once weather permits, roads are icy at the moment.

What you said matches my symptoms. I am interested to know why this happens, why does the stator start charging and then give up, only to repeat this on the next cold start?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2022, 08:47:36 AM »
I had one and only one with a broken wire in the stator that kept making and breaking contact, luckily it was visible so definitely physical damage(probably dropped) and  I soldered it then re insulated the join, worked for years.
It is theoretically possible for the regulator contacts to "stick" when warm, I had one that would occasionally stop charging till the next bump in the road, if you could fit a voltmeter between the white and green wires to the field you would then be able to see if the reg is not working properly
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Offline eldar

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2022, 01:04:21 PM »
I chased charging issue for a long time, because it was charging when cold but when she got hot, the stator went dead.  Check your stator output when you get home from a ride.

That is very interesting. So the test required here would be ride the bike for 30 mins and then put a multimeter to the battery terminals while running and see if increasing RPMs increase voltage?
Yes, or hold your hand in front of the headlight and rev.

I will definitely try this once weather permits, roads are icy at the moment.

What you said matches my symptoms. I am interested to know why this happens, why does the stator start charging and then give up, only to repeat this on the next cold start?

Like Bryanj said, things can stick. Another thing that can happen is a connector can look good, but inside might not have a good connection. Vibrations can cause intermittent connections. As connectors warm up, resistance can increase. It's not like these contacts are made out of gold.
You can check for charging at any engine temp, in fact, it would be best to do it cold, and then warm. 

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2022, 02:48:34 PM »
Why not clip your meter leads on and heat the part up with a hair dryer? This is going to be my standard practice moving forward.

Offline amitr0

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Re: Electrical issue where to starr debugging?
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2022, 03:10:37 PM »
Why not clip your meter leads on and heat the part up with a hair dryer? This is going to be my standard practice moving forward.

What does heating it do?