Author Topic: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - it made it!  (Read 14407 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - it made it!
« on: April 15, 2023, 10:47:09 PM »
I've received the 750 Sandcast engine #1770 to attempt the rebuild, 'twill be the challenge! It was sitting in a shed in Houston for [??] years.

Someone glued the cases together in the past after installing an 825cc kit of forged pistons with press-in pins: those were 'big' for drag racers in the early 1980s and required removing the rods to install the pistons, so it was opened, and then the cases glued shut using FelCoBond (I found some of it oozed out into the rear bolts, one of which has broken off its case thread boss). This nasty stuff was used when gaskets got so cooked onto some bikes' engines (CB350 twin cam covers come to mind) that damaged gasket surfaces resulted after removing them, so it was popular for that, but made a near-permanent bond with engine heat. So, here we are, in the subsequent century, trying to convince it to let go now...

This first pic is the wooden frame I built to try to pull the cases apart by applying opening force from the back, then going to bed, then will check it again in the morning. The center 6mm bolt (inside the starter's pocket on the top of the cases) was fully seized and broke off with about 1" of it still standing in the hole above the case's split line. It might be so corroded in there that it is also holding the cases together, as they will spread far enough to get a fingernail into the crack in front and in back, but won't let go.

The next shot is the clutch's condition on the way out: it is glued together with gooey rust(!).
 3 of the rods won't wiggle on the crank, so am trying not to move them lest it scratch a rod journal. The crank won't turn, either.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2023, 07:09:15 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2023, 10:49:18 PM »
The poor clutch...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2023, 11:06:53 PM »
I've already re-sleeved the cylinders, as 2 of them were split at their bottoms and were bored to 64mm.
The fins were fully broken off the right side of them, had my welder recreate the fins. You can see where this happened by the non-sandy finish on the fins here.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2023, 11:17:31 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2023, 11:14:39 PM »
The rocker towers came with the shafts and rockers all together, but perfectly covered with red dust. It looked like rust, but was not, and they were oiled so there was no rust. The shafts are not original, as seen by their notched-middle slot (original were wasp-waisted in the middle), but are some I remember seeing from Action Fours for their hop-up kits. The pistons probably came from them, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2023, 11:20:21 PM »
The head has some chipped fins, but they will go unrepaired for now.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2023, 11:21:56 PM »
Engine plaque.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2023, 12:13:02 AM »
Quite the project! I won’t complain about mine again. Best of luck, I’m sure you will prevail!
John D.

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2023, 01:37:20 AM »
Alum can eat that 6mm bolt with enough time and reapplication occasionally as it progresses...
Old school trick for steel fasteners in aluminum.

Just have to build up some protection to keep it from getting inside the motor where it could damage the other steel parts.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline newday777

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2023, 02:40:58 AM »
That fin repair looks great. I hope it comes apart okay for you.
Texas has lots of red dirt so it may just be dried red dust mixed with the oil.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2023, 03:32:59 AM »
Your welder did a really nice job recreating the fins. You got tons of cleaning and scrubbing to do on this one. What displacement will it be rebuilt to?
That’s a lot of varnish and other nasty build up of dried fluids and sealants and the like.
Hot tank gonna do much for stripping that stuff off or are you going to need to bead blast things?

Too bad you don’t have your own vapor blaster, soda blaster, and glass bead blaster cabinet setups…along with a heated parts washer…but that would take up a lot of space. Real estate in Denver area certainly is no longer cheap and we often didn’t have the money when younger to afford large places with room to expand for hobbies as desired.  Me I would love to live in a large hangar for cars, residence, wood working shop area, mC and machine tool work area, and hobby area. Heck if I were rich like that I would have a homebuilt aircraft and sailplane and maybe a cargo plane capable of taking the car and bike with me… outfitting the plane with cargo pod living space that could be loaded if I wanted to take a trip and live out of the plane.  Maybe fly part of a load of cargo to cover fuel costs…
Big dreams/fantasies
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline denward17

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2023, 05:26:44 AM »
What a mess you have there, I'm sure you will make it look like new again.

Welder did a fantastic job on the fins on the cylinder.  I like that setup you have for splitting the cases.

Good Luck HM.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2023, 07:44:37 AM »
Engine plaque.

That’s a pretty early number. Did it have a smooth or finned oil filter housing fitted? The one I’m working on had a finned cover, but I suspect it had been “updated” early on.


Offline MauiK3

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2023, 08:39:07 AM »
What a job!!
The fin repair is amazing, I didn't know that was possible.
Following with great interest.
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10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2023, 10:58:33 AM »
Engine plaque.

That’s a pretty early number. Did it have a smooth or finned oil filter housing fitted? The one I’m working on had a finned cover, but I suspect it had been “updated” early on.



I was a little surprised that it does have the smooth oil filter canister(!). I don't know when those stopped, though. This is the earliest one I've worked on since my shop days (I was working at Spring Honda in IL when they came out in 1969), and the first of the pre-finned-oil-filter-covers' type that I've had the privilege to dig inside of. 'Tis being obstinate, though. :D

I've done 3 other sandcasts in the past 8 years, but not as early as this one, and I have one that is about #200 past the sandy series that I haven't rebuilt - yet. Each one has been an adventure!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2023, 11:14:56 AM »
What a job!!
The fin repair is amazing, I didn't know that was possible.
Following with great interest.

Yeah, this guy is amazing! I met him when I was building several classified machines for ordinance suppliers. He is local, an immigrant from Czech Republic about 40+ years ago. I've not met any other welder who can draw a solid arc across open air like this guy can, and if it wasn't for the need of a sandy finish on these fins, you'd never know it wasn't OEM. He's repaired more than 20 such fin 'accidents' for me, and all are works of art and their shapes, even outer edge trims, are identical to the others. It wasn't terrible: around $500 to restore 9 fully missing fins that were NOT connected to the inner sleeve core of the cylinders - the sandcasts' outer fins don't contact the sleeve's bores, unlike the K0 and later versions, which do. It was this particular feature, very hard for Honda to build, that prevented these outer 2 cylinders from warping the way they do in the K0 and later engines. I'm not surprised it disappeared in later builds, given the fragility of this feature in real-life usage. But, the old bore sleeves had disintegrated like many sandcast ones have because they weren't yet destressed like the K0 and later ones were. So now it will be an OEM 61mm bore, as if from new.

I'm going to bring the cases to him, too, to rebuild the missing right rear thread bung for the 8mm bolt back there. He has also rebuilt an entirely missing top left rear bolt mount for me (K3, I think it was) on an engine years ago, by supplying him another one to look at while he did it, from scratch. After wet-blasting it looked factory! Once (another sandcast) I had him rebuild (in 3 steps) an upper case that had suffered a poor repair from a chain crash-thru, it leaked oil past the 2 lbs of JB Weld plugged all over because someone had overheated the cases with their fix-up welding attempt, warping everything. That one took a whole summer of back-and-forth between the welder and a machinist who knows precision (and tricks, and he makes swingarm collars for me) to finally get it to sealing again.

I still remember my Honda mentor Jim Chamberlain's sandcast (the first one sold in Peoria, IL, in 1969). At well over 100k miles he decided to rebuild it. He said it had started 'not being smooth anymore', so he had the crankcases align-bored to see if they had warped: they had, about 3 to 4 ten-thousandths of an inch each, he said. He rebuilt it with all new Black and Brown main bearings and one size smaller rod bearings (same crank, untouched) and last I heard had another 40k+ miles on it, pushing the #2 Vetter Phantom fairing all along the way, smooth as silk again.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2023, 07:16:24 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2023, 11:20:09 AM »
Alum can eat that 6mm bolt with enough time and reapplication occasionally as it progresses...
Old school trick for steel fasteners in aluminum.

Just have to build up some protection to keep it from getting inside the motor where it could damage the other steel parts.

I haven't heard of this trick: any idea where I might get some of this stuff?
I think the 6mm bolt has meshed with the usual in-hole corrosion in the bore of this hole, making this amazingly tight grip. Many of the other bolts were similarly crusty, this one just felt stiff until it suddenly let go, so it was eaten thru about 40% when I started moving it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2023, 11:51:25 AM »
Alum can eat that 6mm bolt with enough time and reapplication occasionally as it progresses...
Old school trick for steel fasteners in aluminum.

Just have to build up some protection to keep it from getting inside the motor where it could damage the other steel parts.

I haven't heard of this trick: any idea where I might get some of this stuff?
I think the 6mm bolt has meshed with the usual in-hole corrosion in the bore of this hole, making this amazingly tight grip. Many of the other bolts were similarly crusty, this one just felt stiff until it suddenly let go, so it was eaten thru about 40% when I started moving it.

The challenge it has to be hot and it is grocery store alum, from the spices area.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=73735.0

You would need to build a dam around bolt to hold the alum mixture and apply heat to it to get the reaction going.
Would silicone caulk hold up to heat, couple hundred degrees?
You could use some aluminum tubing or sheet around the bolt and caulk it to the area where you are going to soak the alum solution.
A heat gun to apply the needed heat.

Watchmakers use it to dissolve bits broken in brass parts.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2023, 06:19:24 PM »
Alum can eat that 6mm bolt with enough time and reapplication occasionally as it progresses...
Old school trick for steel fasteners in aluminum.

Just have to build up some protection to keep it from getting inside the motor where it could damage the other steel parts.

I haven't heard of this trick: any idea where I might get some of this stuff?
I think the 6mm bolt has meshed with the usual in-hole corrosion in the bore of this hole, making this amazingly tight grip. Many of the other bolts were similarly crusty, this one just felt stiff until it suddenly let go, so it was eaten thru about 40% when I started moving it.

The challenge it has to be hot and it is grocery store alum, from the spices area.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=73735.0

You would need to build a dam around bolt to hold the alum mixture and apply heat to it to get the reaction going.
Would silicone caulk hold up to heat, couple hundred degrees?
You could use some aluminum tubing or sheet around the bolt and caulk it to the area where you are going to soak the alum solution.
A heat gun to apply the needed heat.

Watchmakers use it to dissolve bits broken in brass parts.

That's a cool trick I'm going to try to remember. In this situation that would be impossible because I couldn't get to the area around the bolt, it is broken off down inside the case's hole.

BUT: I finally got it apart today! I had to add some wedgies to get it apart, the middle 6mm bolt held it to the very end: in the last pic here you can see the bolt in the distance, holding the upper and lower case apart like that, all by itself. Tough little bugger...
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 07:35:08 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2023, 07:44:39 PM »
There's a little rust here and there, but most of it appears to be the red dust from Houston. The crankshaft does NOT have the engraved markings found on the K0 and later engines, so all the journals will have to be cleaned and measured instead. So far I have only seen one sandcast that had those markings as shown in the Honda manuals.

The oiling pan for the final drive shaft is gone, as is the bearing retainer for that bearing. That explains why the oil seal was hanging halfway out of the case, and it had leaked oil there quite a bit. The seat for the final-drive bearing is all chipped up, too. Haven't ever seen that before: it is bad enough to need resurfacing to get them level again. The bearing was sitting outboard of those chips when I opened it up, hence the seal sticking out.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bek1966

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2023, 09:14:24 PM »
Fantastic project!  Thanks for sharing it with us.

Regards,
Brad
1971 CB750 K1 - Candy Gold
1971 CB500 K0 - Star Light Gold
1974 CB350 F1 - Glory Blue Black

Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2023, 10:57:17 PM »
subscribed
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  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline 69cb750

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2023, 06:34:20 AM »
Quote
The oiling pan for the final drive shaft is gone, as is the bearing retainer for that bearing. That explains why the oil seal was hanging halfway out of the case, and it had leaked oil there quite a bit. The seat for the final-drive bearing is all chipped up, too. Haven't ever seen that before: it is bad enough to need resurfacing to get them level again. The bearing was sitting outboard of those chips when I opened it up, hence the seal sticking out.
The set rings lock the bearings in place.
Those are punch marks someone made to lock the bearing in place, terrible.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2023, 07:18:23 AM »
What a job!!
The fin repair is amazing, I didn't know that was possible.
Following with great interest.

Yeah, this guy is amazing!

Good project and amazing cylinder repair, HM.  Curious why your not having all the fin damage repaired?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2023, 12:18:23 PM »
You're a brave man Mark!  That's a tough job.

A little bead blasting might be able to put some texture on those repaired fins to help blend in the repair.
Do you have a copy of the Honda Shop Manual or Parts List for your bike? Get one here:
https://www.honda4fun.com/materiale/documentazione-tecnica
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Offline rocket johnny

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2023, 12:47:23 PM »
hey marko ,,  that is one helluve project .  something most of us would never attempt .  i'll be watching your progress and cheering you on !