Author Topic: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?  (Read 763 times)

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Offline gearsoup

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CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« on: March 17, 2024, 07:21:21 AM »
So, good news and bad news  (bike is a CB750K6)

The good: I disassembled and vapor blasted the carbs and carb rack, they came out beautiful!  8)


The bad: "OEM" bottom brass was not OEM, it's aftermarket. The rebuild kit I have is Keyster from vintage750.com. The slide needle is OEM, so...yay? (It's set on 2nd clip from bottom, leave it be?)

I DO have a set of junk carbs (see my vapor blast photos in my "build" thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,194090.50.html), but 2 of the carbs are absolutely nasty, the brass is....sketchy at best.  I'll likely just head on over to jetsrus.com and get what I need.
Question 1: Should I replace everything with OEM, or are some of the bras bits okay to leave? Just replace the jets?

Question 2:  Floats; set them to 26mm. Okay, but from where?
If I look at the service manual, it shows them using a gage, it appears to be resting on the outside lip of the upper body (Not where the bowl sits)
In some videos and pictures I've found, I've seen folks using card stock that fits between the float and the lip where the bowl meets. Which one is correct?

I've found a couple YT vids that state differently, so I'm not sure which way to go  :( :(

And here's one that uses the other surface:

I'm not arguing one way or another, I just want to make sure that how I do it is accurate

In the attached photos, ignore that the carbs are not tilted back. Having only two hands, I wanted to simulate the measurement process and take photos at the same time. When setting the floats, they will be tipped back properly (just enough to rest on the float needle)
Third image is taken from the FSM.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 08:20:17 AM by gearsoup »
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2024, 08:37:17 AM »
The stock clip position for a K6 is #4 from the top. Stock brass has five grooves, so two from the bottom is correct, assuming bottom is the pointed end of the needle.

I use this plastic guage I bought years ago. If you look closely, my K6 carbs have an indent it float bowl lip, in the carb body. I just stand the gauge in the that indent and make sure that both floats are resting “snuggly” against the gauge (carbs tipped with the float gauge gently agains the valve pin). Works for me.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 08:39:13 AM by BenelliSEI »

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2024, 09:20:37 AM »
Ok, that lines up with what I'm finding elsewhere. While I do have the adjustable float height tool, I'm not pleased with its weight and ability to drift off of size without your knowledge (perhaps you may set it down to quickly, or some curious kid decides to fiddle with it). So, having the technology, I just 3D printed one  8)

And yes, it's 2 clips up from the bottom (bottom being the end that goes into the jet tube)
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2024, 10:44:44 AM »
Very slick! I’ll be surprised if you don’t get some requests. Smart.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2024, 12:16:55 PM »
I have an adjustable steel float gauge;I used a hacksaw to cut some notches in the bottom of it to fit down onto the carb bodies.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2024, 03:22:12 PM »
The 086a and 7A carbs found in the 750K6 and 750F0 bikes have a notch cut in the edge of the float bowl gasket's outer perimeter to indicate where to set the float gage. Most of the 086a floats are plastic, while many (not all) of the 7A floats were brass. Sometimes the opposite shows up in them, I have pictures of both, and this corresponds with Honda's scramble to make the K6 after the F0 sales fell flat by some 50+% of expectations. (The wiring harnesses reflect this often, too!)

The difference between the floats is: their performance in real riding. The brass ones will cause slightly deeper float depths in real-riding situations, while the plastic ones ride a little higher and make slightly shallower bowl depth WHILE RIDING, not while parked. This is due to the mass of the floats themselves: the brass ones will bounce downward on a road bump more readily than the plastic ones do (the plastic ones have a higher mass, and thus resistance to the sudden change of bumps), so the performance is a bit different.

-Only the purist need try to measure this: in between my wives, circa 1976-79, I did...

So, now beyond the theory-vs.-practice that makes these work...
When I rebuild these for folks - using Keihin's brass - given the physically lighter gasoline [and gas-ethanol mixes] we now have (yep, it is a factor now, too, as it has a lower specific gravity which provides more bouyancy for the floats) and given the stiffer float valve springs we all suffer since 2002 or so, I alter the float settings, period.

Honda called for 26mm from the bottom of the float to the flat zone by the notch on the bodies of the carbs for 1970s-era fuel. This was a 'strict rule' during the Carter administration's DOT (which I have explained in other posts) and this shallow setting let the bikes pass 'static' emissions tests easier, while also needing some hand-choke action to start up cold bikes. It also cut off the top end speed by almost 10 MPH (105 MPH was nearly impossible with most of the K6 bikes, usually 98-102 was all), but the powers that be thought that insignificant. Today, though, it matters again.

So, this calls for alterations if you don't want to be run over from behind by a semi full of rocks!

To get there, I first try, if at all possible, to use the softer float valves found in the older carbs. If they are done for, the next-best step is to both deepen and stagger the floats, if they are not already there. The staggering began because of the propensity of the carbs to dribble on hot days when the bike was on the sidestand: setting the 'lower' float 1mm taller (25mm) than the 'higher' float, referenced to the sidestand, increased the float force against the float valve and made them seal better while parked. (Note: this didn't work for choppers with 30-degree sidestand lean angles, though, important to remember...). This worked until gasahol appeared in the 1990s.

When the lighter-density fuel first appeared the bikes ran rich, all else being equal: we demonstrated it many times by just switching between the different fuels at the pump. Running the 10% alcohol mix would foul plugs quickly and make the bikes often dribble at long stoplights. When MTBE replaced the ethanol, this reversed. Personally, I think this is where the confusion began regarding float depths and performance: it had me for a while.

Then I had the chance to work with some K0/K1 bikes alongside the later ones (K4/5). The early ones worked better with the new fuels. They had the older 657a series carbs, which had the staggered brass floats (25/25mm and 25/26mm in K0 and 25/26mm in K1) from the factory: taking the lead from those, we went to 25/26mm in the later bikes (still with the softer float valve springs, though) and things got better.

So, I have stayed with the 25/26mm float depths, despite the stiffer float valve springs, in most rebuilds - although one caveat: mine are 24/25mm so I MUST shut off the fuel at all parking stops. This requires that the float bowl gasket be a good one, and gluing it to the carb body with a couple of dabs of gasket cement will help you when the carbs are back on the bike and you must remove a float bowl. I also open up the larger holes in the emulsifiers to 0.0375" on almost all rebuilds because it takes more air to burn the ethanol more completely without a catalytic convertor: this is especially important if the bike must pass emissions tests somewhere. It also helps keep the plugs cleaner, longer. Mine are all 0.039", which works well at 6000+ ft altitude.

Don't overlook the mainjet size, nor the octane ratings: understand today's fuels as compared to 1970s fuels. This means:
1. ethanol needs more air to burn, so a leaner mainjet and/or larger emulsifier holes are sometimes needed. Mine were #110 from the factory: today at 6000+ ft altitude I run 102.5 size since I switched to a K4 cam in 2013.
2. floats ride higher in ethanol than in gasoline, so higher depth (lower mm numbers) are needed, usually by 1mm.
3. fuel burn rates are much, much slower than in 1970s gasolines, so use less octane. Example: I run Regular grade in town since 2016, and Midgrade on the interstates (to 110+ MPH) to help keep the plugs cleaner longer and retain the high-end speeds. This burn rate has been slowed to help cars light off their catalytic convertors sooner: the warmed-up unburned fuel lights off in the catalysts quickly, and it needs to be able to do this in cold weather. Refineries blend for your altitude, so ignore the old rules of changing octanes yourself with high-altitude trips, it's just not needed since about 2016 anymore (USA rules, don't know about elsewhere).

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2024, 03:56:50 PM »
Thanks Mark for that very complete  ;) answer on floats.  :)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2024, 04:12:27 PM »
Indeed, that certainly was thorough and clears up my confusion, thanks!
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline willbird

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2024, 05:54:58 AM »
Very slick! I’ll be surprised if you don’t get some requests. Smart.

There is a guy on Ebay selling one like you showed in  your K6 thread, around $18 USD shipped.

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2024, 09:05:33 AM »
So I've spent the morning soaking the old OEM brass (from the junk/spare carb set)
2 hours in Berryman (new stuff, so not as good) and then an hour in my ultrasonic (using SharperTek 1220). The end result was that I was able to get the main jets out of the emulsion tubes. Stuff is still plugged up a bit, so I'll get to work with some small wires, carb cleaner etc.

Question on identifying bits:
Float valve seats, slow, main jet and top needles all have the "K" stamp on them. Emulsion tubes DO NOT. Would anyone know if OEM emulsion tubes are stamped, and does it matter if they are not OEM?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 09:44:42 AM by gearsoup »
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2024, 03:42:03 PM »
Careful with wire. Scratching the insides can really affect the way they “spray”. Soak and use air. I’d use the tubes you have……

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2024, 04:14:57 PM »
I’d use the tubes you have……

Which ones, the OEM or the aftermarkets that were in the bike already? Considering neither one of them are badged, they could very well be OEM, as the both appear to measure and look the same (I'm a machinist with access to rather fine measuring equipment, just for clarity)
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2024, 04:19:43 PM »
OEM if you have them.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2024, 07:43:23 PM »
Often the Keihin emulsifier tubes don't have a stamp on them. One way I have found to 'tell' if the tubes are Keihin or Keyster/K&N is: the Keihin's larger holes are 0.0375" and the small ones are 0.025" (barely) size, while I've often found the holes in the others to be smaller. In the K&N (I think it is the K&N) versions there are only 4 upper holes (small ones) instead of 8. There should be 8.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Galactica

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2024, 11:46:12 PM »
So, I freely admit I’ve come to the CB750 community via Kawasaki Z1/KZs.  The carb float levels were never an issue or in doubt.  Using the clear tube method, the actual final real world fuel levels in the float bowls could be actually visibly confirmed and adjusted.  Why not with Hondas?

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2024, 01:04:39 AM »
Often the Keihin emulsifier tubes don't have a stamp on them. One way I have found to 'tell' if the tubes are Keihin or Keyster/K&N is: the Keihin's larger holes are 0.0375" and the small ones are 0.025" (barely) size, while I've often found the holes in the others to be smaller. In the K&N (I think it is the K&N) versions there are only 4 upper holes (small ones) instead of 8. There should be 8.

Okay, then I've got OEM emulsion tubes, that's good. A couple of the main jets from the old carb, while having the #105 stamp, did not measure 1.05mm in the bore (they were #107/#108). I've got some Keihin jets on order (#40slow and #105 main from jetsrus.com), so I've installed the carbs on the bike and will just swap them out when they come in. New boots and clamps, install was rather painless!
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2024, 05:50:46 AM »
Where did you get your manifolds and clamps? The aftermarket set I used are junk.

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2024, 07:06:39 AM »
Manifolds came from an ebay seller, they're OEM units. The ones on the bike are also OEM, but they have some years on them, I'll save them as spares for my next CB750..
Clamps came from vintagecb750.com. They clamp nicely, but I'm not sure I'm keen on the black paint job, some of the screw heads (standard Phillips) were a little bit painted over. I think I'd have preferred nickel/chrome.

Carb boots:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/226030493480
Clamps: https://www.vintagecb750.com/products/6/fuel-system/54/carb-holders-air-box-rubber-boots-clamps   (46-49mm)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 07:09:23 AM by gearsoup »
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2024, 10:28:30 AM »
Often the Keihin emulsifier tubes don't have a stamp on them. One way I have found to 'tell' if the tubes are Keihin or Keyster/K&N is: the Keihin's larger holes are 0.0375" and the small ones are 0.025" (barely) size, while I've often found the holes in the others to be smaller. In the K&N (I think it is the K&N) versions there are only 4 upper holes (small ones) instead of 8. There should be 8.

Okay, then I've got OEM emulsion tubes, that's good. A couple of the main jets from the old carb, while having the #105 stamp, did not measure 1.05mm in the bore (they were #107/#108).

That's the kind of damage we see from the years of MTBE in the gas. In liquid form it is an etching acid. Once it burns it is an oxide and doesn't further 'hurt' anything, which probably was the argument that allowed it to even be used in the gas for a decade, ruining intake valve guides and sanding away the exhaust guides where the valve stems moved. Remember all the gas stations that had to replace their tanks during those years? 'Twas the MTBE eating up their underground tank liners, pumps, pipes and hoses. Anything brass, aluminum, unalloyed iron or zinc was at risk while it was 'wet'.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline gearsoup

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Re: CB7570K6 Float Height setting?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2024, 10:55:44 AM »
That's the kind of damage we see from the years of MTBE in the gas. In liquid form it is an etching acid. Once it burns it is an oxide and doesn't further 'hurt' anything, which probably was the argument that allowed it to even be used in the gas for a decade, ruining intake valve guides and sanding away the exhaust guides where the valve stems moved. Remember all the gas stations that had to replace their tanks during those years? 'Twas the MTBE eating up their underground tank liners, pumps, pipes and hoses. Anything brass, aluminum, unalloyed iron or zinc was at risk while it was 'wet'.

I was always curious what led to them failing like that, now I know  ;D
Current Project: CB750-K6 (hoping for OEM look)
Future Project: CB750-K8  (likely go wild on this build)