Author Topic: engine keeps dying  (Read 2264 times)

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dminner

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engine keeps dying
« on: March 28, 2007, 06:16:09 AM »
Okay, so this is my first bike (74' cb550), and I have no idea what I am doing.  The bike starts right up but, it is very difficult to get it to idle, you really have to constantly give it gas to keep it from dying.  Some friends are telling me it is a carb issue.  But, my girlfriends mom gave me the bike and said that she just had the carbs and some other stuff worked on last summer.

Any other ideas of what may cause this, or how I can fix the problem.  Someone told me that is could be the selenoids, and that I am just losing spark, cause somethimes it will idle (not good, but okay) but will die when I am riding.  The farthest I have ever made it without it dying was half way around the block  :D.

Can anyone help?  or have any ideas on how I can further diagnose the problem.

Offline my78k

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2007, 06:35:07 AM »
First guess from me would be blocked slow jets...but it could be a lot of things...so you need to do a bit of homework before it can be properly diagnosed...

remember you need three things for a bike to run...air, fuel and spark...

Easiest thing to do is check for spark across all four cylinders...pretty easy to do just take out one plug at a time reattach it to the wire and hold it close to the frame (basically touching) and you should see a solid fat blue spark arcing acroos the gap as you crank over the engine with the ignition on. If so it could still be timing etc so this will not necessarily rule out a spark issue but atleast you will know there is spark.

Second thing I would do is pop off one of the float bowls off one of the carbs and see what comes out and the condition of the inside of the bowl. This won't immediately tell you if the slow jets are plugged but if there is any suspended particles i.e. rust you can pretty much guarantee that the slow jets are plugged up with gunk. Another indicator of this is does it idle better with the choke on? How much throttle do you haver to give it to keep it idling etc...

Air, well that's pretty easy...all you need to do is get back to us with if there is an air filter or is it pods etc...could try taking offf the airbox etc to see if it improves which may help in diagnosing if the jet sizes are correct etc....

We definitely need more info before truly steering you in the right direction but do a quick search on idling problems on here and you will see that most of the time it goes back to carb issues but you will definitely get a ton of info to try to work through and a decent step by step of things to check...

Dennis


dminner

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2007, 07:16:17 AM »
Thanks a lot Dennis,

I will test the spark as you said when I get home from work, and I have know idea what the "float bowl" is, but I will look up some info and do that too.

  As for the idle, it does idle much better with the choke all the way one, and I hardly have to give it any gas to keep it going, I just cant let go of the handle completely.  As for the air, it does have an air box (although, I would rather have pods, but I heard these were bad for your bike, is this true? or does it just depend on who you ask?).

tmht

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007, 07:20:16 AM »
1. Start with the simple stuff... Like say... have you played with the idle adjustment screw to set your idle rpm correctly?

2. Pods are not bad for your bike, if you keep them clean and oiled properly. The down side to them is that they introduce a host of tuning issues. Since they are less restrictive than the stock configuration you will have to re-jet and adjust the carb needles to compensate for the extra air being introduced.

dminner

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2007, 07:25:03 AM »
1. Start with the simple stuff... Like say... have you played with the idle adjustment screw to set your idle rpm correctly?

2. Pods are not bad for your bike, if you keep them clean and oiled properly. The down side to them is that they introduce a host of tuning issues. Since they are less restrictive than the stock configuration you will have to re-jet and adjust the carb needles to compensate for the extra air being introduced.

No, I havent played with the idle adjustment screw.  Not sure what this is either, but will do a search and look it up and try this.  When, you say "set it correctly," is this just by ear, or until it idles.  Sorry, I am so ignorant w/ this stuff, I have never had a motorcycle before.  Thanks for clearing up the pod question, at my beginner level I guess I should probably stick w/ the airbox for now, cause I dont know how to rejet and adjust the carb needles.

Offline clarkjh

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007, 07:31:11 AM »
Dminner

Get a manual and start reading.  Sounds like your slow jets might be blocked.
Big files but might help;
http://www.cryscom.nb.ca/Documents.htm

James
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1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

tmht

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007, 07:40:24 AM »
No, I havent played with the idle adjustment screw.  Not sure what this is either, but will do a search and look it up and try this.  When, you say "set it correctly," is this just by ear, or until it idles.  Sorry, I am so ignorant w/ this stuff, I have never had a motorcycle before.  Thanks for clearing up the pod question, at my beginner level I guess I should probably stick w/ the airbox for now, cause I dont know how to rejet and adjust the carb needles.

There should be a large thumb screw sticking off the rack of carbs that when turned will raise or lower the idle speed by slightly raising or lowering the throttle valves. I don't have a 550 so I couldn't tell you exactly where it is on your bike. Nor could I tell you what the idle speed should be, but on the 400 it is 1200 rpm, so I am guessing that the 550 should be somewhere in that range.

Also, this is going to sound silly but, pull your air filter and make sure it is clean and unobstructed. Check the strength of your battery and the water level as well, an old week battery can cause this as these old bikes don't really make much charge before 4000-5000 rpm.

I am not disagreeing with those who think it may be your slow jets. But, sometimes we are too quick to tear into our bikes when we could solve the problem by starting with the simple things first like basic maintenance items.

The trick is to be very methodical and check one thing at a time and if a change is necessary, change only one thing at a time.

dminner

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2007, 07:49:21 AM »
Cool, yeah, there is a good chance the battery may be shot.  When, my girlfriends mom gave it they had just tried to put a new battery in and wired it backwards (not entirly their fault I guess, cause for some reason the ground wire has a red band).  Anyway, it friend the wiring harness, they got fed up with it and gave the bike to me for free, so im not complaining.  But I am sure the battery isnt in great condition becasue of this.  But I figured that as long as it started up then the electrical system and wiring was fine?  I just assumed this wasnt going to affect it dying.  Mabye I should get a new battery too and start there, I am going to bid on a new wiring harness on ebay that ends tomorrow.


James, thanks for the manual.

Offline my78k

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2007, 09:18:57 AM »
I'd say slow down a sec before buying much...I am no expert compared to alot of guys on here but I do spend a lot of time reading and somehow managed to bring back a 78 750k that was point the point of really saving (only because it was free and I was looking for a relatively cheap education and an excuse to drink beer and turn wrenches in my driveway!). I am guessing due to your comment about the choke improving idle that the jets are plugged. I am not saying you have to tear the carbs down right away but am willing to bet that in order to get it 100% you will...for now I would try cheaper stuff before spending lots of money on new parts. One thing to try is drop in some Seafoam in the tank (a carb cleaner you can add directly to the fuel...not as good as a tear down but alot of guys have had success with this method)

Batteries aren't cheap...I would do 2 things: 1- put it on a decent charger (preferably an automatic that has an indicator to show how charged it is) and then check the voltage readings once it is fully charged. Lots of posts answered by a member that goes by Twotired that will give correct voltage levels (put a voltmeter on and see if the charge is staying in the battery). 2- start the bike and put a voltmeter on the battery and rev it to see if the charging system works. Again I don't have the exact voltages here but it should hover around 12.5 volts or so and then go to as high as around 13.8-14 once the revs climb around 3000-4000 or so.

Dennis




Offline my78k

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2007, 09:20:20 AM »
oh yeah...one other thing is I would mention your location etc either in the post or in your bio as there maybe someone in your neck of the woods willing to hook up and give you a quick tutorial...

Dennis

dminner

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2007, 09:30:49 AM »
Thats a good point, I should edit my bio, I live in Indianapolis, IN (actually Plainfield, IN but know one ever knows where that is).

Offline Gordon

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 09:32:39 AM »
The best thing for you to do right now, considering this is your first bike, is buy a manual for it and go through every regular maintenance step, one by one.  This will insure that everything has been done and will not only set a base point from which all future maintenance can be timed, but will also put you in a much better position to diagnose and repair any problems that remain. 

upperlake04

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2007, 09:39:41 AM »

Batteries aren't cheap...I would do 2 things: 1- put it on a decent charger (preferably an automatic that has an indicator to show how charged it is) and then check the voltage readings once it is fully charged.


A trickle charger, rule of thumb is 1/10 max of the battery amp rating. Stock 550 batteries are 12 amps.

CBR_Rod

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2007, 09:40:24 AM »
When they speak of a manual, they don't mean a owners manual either.  A shop manual or service manual is what they are talking about.  Clymer's is a great brand to get and Haynes might be worth checking in to as well.  Both can be had on Ebay used for a reasonable price.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2007, 10:37:16 AM »
When, my girlfriends mom gave it they had just tried to put a new battery in and wired it backwards (not entirely their fault I guess, cause for some reason the ground wire has a red band).  Anyway, it friend the wiring harness, they got fed up with it and gave the bike to me for free, so im not complaining.  But I am sure the battery isnt in great condition becasue of this.  But I figured that as long as it started up then the electrical system and wiring was fine?  I just assumed this wasnt going to affect it dying. 

Well, until you told us this, I would have thought your carburetor slow jets were clogged.  Although they still might be...
Reversing the battery connection almost certainly damaged the rectifier in the charging system, and likely some of the wiring and connectors need to be replaced.  I'm guessing you can't electric start the bike either because the battery is poorly charged.

To have spark you need voltage.  During start this is supplied by the battery.
Your alternator may be producing some power through the undamaged portion of the rectifier.  But, it only makes enough power to overcome the electrical load of the lighting, coils and alternator field, when the engine is revving up.  When the RPM falls below that threshold, the battery voltage falls from depletion, the coils can't make spark for the motor and it dies, sometimes just as you apply the brakelight.

If you just want to drive around the block, then get yourself an AUTOMATIC charger/tender.  Unless you are committed to learn a lot more about things electrical, avoid the cheap trickle charger, especially ones for automotive use.  IF you don't personally monitor the use of trickle chargers, you'll be buying new batteries frequently.
Charge the battery, don't use the lighting, and you may be able to drive around the block.

If you want to see if your charging system is functioning for longer trips, then get your self a digital multimeter.  They can be had for under $10, and with your bike's history you're going to need this.

With it, measure the battery voltage. Start the bike, And measure the battery voltage again at 5000, 4000, 3000, 2000, and 1000 RPM if it will idle.
Write down the numbers and do the test again with the lighting switch on.
Tell us the numbers.

Carbs:
One has to wonder why the carbs were rebuilt last year?  And, if the cause may have been fuel contamination.
The 74 CB550 has a sediment bowl at the bottom of the petcock. It unscrews (lefty loosey) and in it you'll find a sampling of what the carburetor may have been fed.  If you feed clean carbs dirty fuel, they become dirty all over again.
Also in the petcock is supposed to be a fuel screen to block that stuff you found in the petcock bowl.  Remove it with care and check it for holes clean the bowl and the screen and reassemble.
If you found anything other than pure fuel in the petcock bowl.  Ask yourself where that came from?
Why, the tank, of course.  So, look inside the tank and see if there is dirt or other contamination like rust inside the tank.

The carburetor slow jets supply fuel at idle throttle settings, and meter fuel though an orifice that is 0.016 inches in diameter.  Clean fuel molecules are considerably small than this, but lumps of debris from the fuel tank won't and will block the fuel from getting to the engine, making clean carbs in instant need of cleaning.

There are four carbs and four opportunities for fuel blockage.  If your throttle is at or near idle, the exhaust head pipes will be cold(er) on cylinders with blocked slow or idle jet orifices.

You are likely going to need a Shop manual to rescue the machine.

Good luck!

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline my78k

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2007, 11:32:31 AM »
Yeah...what TT said...I told you to look for his posts! He has forgotten far more about these bikes than I will ever know...infact most people on here have!  ;)

One tip on checking the pipes for temperatures is ideally have an infra red thermometer but at the very least use the back of your hand and not the palm as the natural reflex is to close your hand when burned rather than let go and pull away...only other thing is note which exhausts are colder because of the relation from an electrical perspective. I don't believe Fuel has this same relationship (unless there is a 2 fuel line set-up from the petcock but I don't believe your bike has this).

Remember to post back your findings and do lots of reading on this site. It may seem like you are over your head right now but with a little research on here and asking the right questions (and providing the right background info) you will get it going again. These bikes are surprisingly resilient and some parts that you may think to be busted may not be so unless you have access to free or cheap parts (i.e. a parts bike) don't necessarily assume that it is busted without doing more diagnostic work.

The manual will save you FAR MORE than you spend on the book...other option is look for an online shop manual or CD Rom. I have both the Clymer and a true shop manual for mine and it helped me a ton! Also look through the FAQ and previous posts as pretty much anything you can think of posting has already been asked...

Could check out these sites too for info as I learned from them...bare in mind that we have different bikes but alot of the info is universal.

http://www.salocal.com/sohc/tech/tech.htm
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/MC.html

Dennis


Offline paxtonpony

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2007, 02:19:14 PM »
Dminner

Get a manual and start reading.  Sounds like your slow jets might be blocked.
Big files but might help;
http://www.cryscom.nb.ca/Documents.htm

James

I can't seem to get this to print.  In fact, it doesn't even give me the option.  Would be nice to have this manual in the garage, I think my wife would be mad if I walked my greasy boots all the way to the back room and then got greasy fingerprints all over the keyboard and mouse while I looked something up.
1969 CB750K - Wrecked
1978 CB750K - Sold
1992 GS500 Streetfighter - Sold
1975 CB750F - Sold (sniff, sniff)
1994 VFR750F - Sold
1990 GSXR 750 - Sold
1999 CBR1100XX - Sold
2000 Triumph Legend TT - Bike of the week for me?
1992 Mustang - Paxton powered (12.02@115mph on street tires) and For Sal

Offline clarkjh

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Re: engine keeps dying
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2007, 02:27:51 PM »
The one on Carburetion was locked when I found it.  Can't print it unless you can unlock it, I don't have the code.  The owners,(from my 74 CB550K), setup, and repair manuals you should be able to print.  The repair manual is 188 pages.

James
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SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***