Author Topic: Another sticky front brake thread - solved  (Read 5561 times)

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Offline jensk

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Another sticky front brake thread - solved
« on: April 01, 2007, 09:06:32 AM »
I have a 77 CB550K that is on the final stages before going to the test for having licenseplates. I have 2 major issues left. The electrics and the sticky and lame front brake. I have read all the postings about getting air out of the system and I believe that there is no air in the hydralics. My brakelines are braided and not. The line from the master cylinder is braided. The one down to the wheel is ordinary.

How well are these bikes supposed to brake. My front brake is very lame when cold. As is heats up after a few brake ups it gets better. Even when warm i can pull  the grip all the way to the handle and still barely get the front wheel to block. Is this normal or are my pads contaminated or?

The other part of the front brake issue is that the caliber doesn't retract very well. I have dismantlet the caliber and I can have the pad falling out og the house by gravity. I can press the piston into the house with good use of my thumbs - and by this have brakfluid squirt out of the caliber house.

As I see it there is only one possible cause og sticky brakes left - a clogged compensation port. I have tried to put a stiff nylonwire into the two holes in the reservoir. The one marked A i can get the nylon wire about ½" down into the hole. On the hole marked B I can get it 1/10" into the hole. Is the hole B clogged? If clogged i need to know the diameter of the often mentioned guitar string. When i bleed the brakes bubles only cmes out of hole A

« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 01:10:56 PM by jensk »
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline mkramer1121

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 09:18:26 AM »
Hole B is a very tiny hole, you need to use something like a thin guitar string or smaller to unclog it.  Also, how is your piston in the caliper?  Is it heavily pitted?  Did you replace the caliper o-ring when you rebuilt the front brakes?  If you did, did you clean all of the crude out of the groove before seating the new o-ring?  These can all lead to the piston not retracting properly, as the o-ring does not seal well against the piston causing it not to retract.

Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 09:33:35 AM »
I will get some very tiny wire to get through hole B. Is there anything in the that I can damage or is there just mastercylinder bore. My o-ring did look like it was in good shape so i didn'øt replace it. The same with the piston - not seriously pittet.

I have tried the ease pressure of the system by opening the breed screw while a 1 meter tube was attached and tied to the cieling. I had hopes this would give me an idea as to why the brakes is sticky. The reault of the easing of brake pressure was that the brakes was preventing the frontwheel turning freely.

I guess this leads to the conclusion that the fault is not in the master cylinder part. This points back to the caliber part. Maybe i shall put on a new o-ring or?

'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline Kevin400F

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 09:43:30 AM »
Gentlemen, take another look at the picture.....hole A, the one closest to the brake hose, is the very tiny hole.  When the piston is retracted (brake not applied), the space under that hole is open across the cylinder bore.  When you poke into Hole B, you hit the piston assembly, so it sounds like what you're seeing as far as the nylon wire insertion distances are perfectly normal.

Kevin in TX

Offline mkramer1121

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 09:46:25 AM »
Kevin, your right, I had my holes backwards.  Sorry.  Still seems to be something with the caliper though.  There was a thread just posted in the FAQs done by TT as to how to fix sticky front brakes.  Maybe have a look as hes an expert here and I'm only trying to help based on my experience.

Offline LoopsAndLogic

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 09:58:05 AM »
If you don't have pits or you already replaced the front piston seal, you definitely need to re-hone the inside bore of the caliper housing.

I did mine with wet sandpaper and started with 1200 and worked up to 3000. Left it nice and smooth and the piston goes all the way
to the back with ease with no sticking, whats so ever.

It's highly recommended!

Best of luck
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 10:17:16 AM »
How much is sticking?

I can press the piston to the bottom of the bore when I use both thumbs. If I use only one thumb I cannot press it in. Is this to much sticky or is it ok?

How do you determine if a o-ring needs to be changed?

When I had the caliber dismantled I removed all the crud in the o-ring groove.
/jk
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 11:36:51 AM »
I have read all the postings about getting air out of the system and I believe that there is no air in the hydralics. My brakelines are braided and not. The line from the master cylinder is braided. The one down to the wheel is ordinary.
Is your rubber line old or new?  Old rubber hoses swell under pressure and limit the maximum pad pinch at the rotor.

How well are these bikes supposed to brake. My front brake is very lame when cold. As is heats up after a few brake ups it gets better. Even when warm i can pull  the grip all the way to the handle and still barely get the front wheel to block. Is this normal or are my pads contaminated or?
Are these new pads or old?  New pads take a while to fully seat and make full contact with the rotor.
If you have old pads that have EVER been contaminated with brake fluid, fork oil, or caliper housing grease, you will need new ones, or live with the weak brakes as they "lubricate" themselves.
With my 550s, the ones with old rubber lines, I cannot lock the front tire.  The ones with SS braided lines, I can chirp the front tire with about 1/4 inch to go between the lever and grip.  I can lock old hard tires.  But, new soft rubber tires just sqwall and scare me.
Remember that Honda introduced the front disc brake with these old bikes.  I believe they adjusted their sensitivity so that the riders of the older brakes won't grap a handfull in the corners and slide off the road on the side of the bike.  You will NOT be able to one finger the SOHC4 brake lever.
The only other explanation for your lever/pressure issue is remaining air in the system.  Bleed then as best up can and position the bike with the master relief port as near to the sky as you can manage.  Allow to sit overnight.  Next day open the top cap and watch that tiny hole as you slowly move the brake lever. Do you see any bubbles? 

The other part of the front brake issue is that the caliber doesn't retract very well. I have dismantlet the caliber and I can have the pad falling out og the house by gravity. I can press the piston into the house with good use of my thumbs - and by this have brakfluid squirt out of the caliber house.
The test I use, is that with no seal in the caliper, the piston moves in and out of the caliper bore with gravity.  So, should the brake pad.
Old seals may lose resiliency and fail to retract the pad.  And, it their are lots of deep pits in the piston, this will prevent the puck seal from doing its job, as well.

As I see it there is only one possible cause og sticky brakes left - a clogged compensation port. I have tried to put a stiff nylonwire into the two holes in the reservoir. The one marked A i can get the nylon wire about 1/2" down into the hole. On the hole marked B I can get it 1/10" into the hole. Is the hole B clogged? If clogged i need to know the diameter of the often mentioned guitar string. When i bleed the brakes bubles only cmes out of hole A
If you can get bubbles out of the pressure relief hole in the master, it is not holding holding hydraulic pressure in the line.  You can test for this by cracking open a hydraulic line.  If this allows the piston to retract, then there is a master cyl problem.  If not, the problem lies elsewhere.

I have seen rubber lines deteriorate internally and behave as one way valves.  They would pass pressure/fluid to the caliper but not allow relief.  Only way to find that was to crack the fittings at each end.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 12:15:22 PM »
TT -Thank you for a very thorough reply.
Which one is the pressure reflief hole in the reservoir A or B?

I guess i can conclude the following.
It doesn't seems like i can pump the brake so i guess the master cylinder piston is ok.
The ability to pull the lever all he way to the handle is most likely a result of a very old rubber brake line - I will change it to a braided tomorrow.
I wil also buy new o-ring seal so i can be certain that it isn't the old o-ring seal preventing retraction of the pads from the disk.

Piston is a bit pittet but until other things have been testet i will accept the piston as ok.

I conclude that the braking force i have is normal since I can get it to allmost block the front wheel when i pull the hardest I can = til lever allmost touches the handle.
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 12:22:50 PM »
Quote
Piston is a bit pittet but until other things have been testet i will accept the piston as ok.

It all depends on where and how much pitting there is. If it occurs where the piston seal contacts the piston during piston movement, that could cause leakage.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
I have had no leaking around the piston even when i drove around doing repeating breaking maximum power , accelerating to 80kmh - braking maximum - accelerating to 80kmh for half an hour using only the front brake. After this test i dismantled the brake and inspected behind the movable pad to se if the o-ring seal was tight. No leaking occuring so i conclude that the piston - o-ring seal is holding the brakefluid where it should be - in the caliber cavity.

Can the o-ring seal hold tight but have difficulty retracting the piston/pad?
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline paulages

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
just my two cents: everything that TT said (except that i can 1 finger brake, but i have two disks and SS lines) is great advice as usual. in my experience, the seal seldom needs to be replaced. what is CRITICAL however, is that every last bit of crud is cleaned out of the groove it sits in though. and i don't believe you've bled all of the air out of your lines. i've been there with these brakes: you aren't getting any more air at the bleeder or back through the M/C, but it's still squishy. try bleeding your way down the lines at every fitting. air can get trapped at the brake switch junction.
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2007, 01:02:49 PM »
I can understand a spongy feeling in the lever as a sign of air in the system somewhere but can air in the system cause sticky brakes?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 01:14:09 PM by jensk »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2007, 01:15:10 PM »
Can the o-ring seal hold tight but have difficulty retracting the piston/pad?

Yes.

Show us a picture of your piston pitting where it is at its worst.

The property of the seal returning to its original shape is what retracts the piston.
If the seal is filling many large pit voids, it's shape is distorted and it's internal stress forces are uneven.  Void filling reduces the ability of the seal to return to square cross section.    If the seal has hardened with age, the piston slides over it, rather than distorting the seal in parallelogram fashion, losing piston retraction ability.

That rubber part is not only a seal.  It's a dual function part where only one function is blatantly apparent.
Certainly any debris in the seal's nesting groove will also interfere with its function.

One thing I omitted in my previous post, is that of setting .006 inch stationary pad clearance to the disk.  Too large a gap increases the brake lever travel to where you can run out.  Too little a gap and the pad can drag and overheat.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2007, 01:31:23 PM »
This is the three sides of my piston with pits. None of the scars are more than a fraction of a mm deep.
The o-ring seems very herdened so I guess it has to be changed to get a god retraction of the piston.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 02:31:08 PM by jensk »
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2007, 03:26:52 PM »
The piston doesn't look that bad.  But, I haven't seen one with that long groove pit either.  Can you determine if that groove is near an edge of the caliper seal during operation? 

Speculation: Maybe you need to grind off some of the pad in order to position the seal away from that long pit?

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2007, 10:53:11 PM »
There is a small pit - the one on the middle picture approx 1 cm down, a little to the right of the middle on the pict - that is directly on the o-ring. This pit is also one of the deepest pits ½ - 3/4 mm. Even with this pit the seal doesn't leak so i assume that it doesn't have a negative effect on the brake. The long horisontal pit on the picture to the left is also directly where the o-ring meets the piston.

I did grind of some of the pad. I did it because i thought that the pad was contaminated with some grease since I couldn't get more brake effect out of pulling the lever. As I undrstand that part now the "lame" braking effect is how it is with these brakes aka buildin ABS  ;D

Today I will go hunting for a braided brakeline and for a new seal. Is a seal like this normal for bikes at this age (77).

I have cleaned the seal and the housing and I can get the piston in the caliber without much force when the seal is seated in the caliber. I can get the piston out by compressed air at very low pressure - comes out as soon as air is going inside the brakeline.
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

liaudio

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2007, 12:35:49 AM »
On the CB's, when all else fails, a dragging front brake is caused by a malfunctioning master cylinder.  a new rebuild kit will run about $40.  The caliper is also a cause for concern, but the older CB's are notorious for needing a rebuild on the front master cylinder. 

Offline bryanj

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2007, 05:43:58 AM »
I know i will probably be a lone voice but i would junk that piston and replace Remember that you only have one neck.
Have you cleaned the caliper bracket pivot pin?
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Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2007, 08:52:46 AM »
Can the o-ring seal hold tight but have difficulty retracting the piston/pad?

Yes.

Show us a picture of your piston pitting where it is at its worst.

The property of the seal returning to its original shape is what retracts the piston.
If the seal is filling many large pit voids, it's shape is distorted and it's internal stress forces are uneven.  Void filling reduces the ability of the seal to return to square cross section.    If the seal has hardened with age, the piston slides over it, rather than distorting the seal in parallelogram fashion, losing piston retraction ability.

That rubber part is not only a seal.  It's a dual function part where only one function is blatantly apparent.
Certainly any debris in the seal's nesting groove will also interfere with its function.

One thing I omitted in my previous post, is that of setting .006 inch stationary pad clearance to the disk.  Too large a gap increases the brake lever travel to where you can run out.  Too little a gap and the pad can drag and overheat.

Cheers,


TT,

So the seal's reflex back to its original dimensions and maybe some micro-vibration of the disk and pads is responsible for piston retraction, eh?  If so, then the seal material would need to supple enough to have "shape memory" yet be "grabby" enough to be distorted by the piston's forward movement and to haul the piston backwards when the hydraulic pressure is released.  In addition to holding hydrolic fluid & pressure, the seal acts as a spring with very short travel.

Guess that would also explain why the seal has a square cross section and not round.
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Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2007, 10:39:32 AM »
Thank you for all the replies.
I have ordered new seal, piston and a new braided brakeline today - don't want to fool around with my health.

I don't think it is the mc that has the fault. I have two master cylinders - one with a rubber sleve and one without
They are marked 2A2 and 1T2. I have been told that the one marked 2A2 is the original that came with my 77 CB550K3. The other one marked 1T2 is from a 78 CB550F i have been told.


I have dismantled the 2A2 mc and rinsed it. It ssems to function ok and is holding pressure without leaking brakefluid.


The 1T2 (with a rubber sleve) is leaking a little bit but I don't know hos to dismantle it. Is there a circlip underneath the rubber sleve or and how do I get to the circlip without destroying the rubber sleve?
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2007, 11:19:27 AM »
Both those masters should have the rubber dust boot.  Replacements are included in the rebuild kit, which you need if it is leaking.

The dust boot is difficult to extract without tearing.  The best technique I've found is to use a round pointed tool to release the rubber from the center shaft.  Once the rubber is standing proud of the shaft, pull the boot directly out.  There is a metal ring that holds the base of that rubber.   Small right angle picks can be quite handy.

Then the fun begins, because the piston is held in by am internal snap ring.  You need a long nose snap ring pliers to remove that.  Such a tool can be difficult to find.  The rest of the dismantle is pretty straight forward after the snap ring is removed.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

snoop

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2007, 12:02:37 PM »
I am currently doing my brakes right now,  the manual shows the snapring going on top of the rubber.  When I pulled it apart, the snap ring was below the rubber.  Does it matter which order?

liaudio

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2007, 12:10:50 PM »
there is a circlip which holds the dust boot on.  under that is the snapring which holds the entire assembly in the cylinder.

Offline jensk

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Re: Another sticky front brake thread
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 04:39:11 AM »
I have gotten the new seal, the new piston and new pads. Couldn't get a new brakeline so that must wait till after easter. I wiped the disk with acetone to get rid of possible old grease on it.

There was a small white nylon ring with the piston-side pad. Should that be installed with the pad?

After installing the new parts i tried the brake and it was disturbingly lame. I guess it is due to brun in of the new pads. At the beginning I could rock the front wheel with the brake lever pulled.

I have been driving around with the lever pulled and i can still drive in 1.st gear with the lever pulled all the way to the handle.

Absolutly sure there is no air in the system. Mc still not leaking and no other leaks can be seen on the system.

My next step would be to change the lower brakeline to a braided type and se if it helps. I'm running out of ideas if that doesn't help.
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.