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Offline cb650

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PC help
« on: April 12, 2007, 02:16:25 PM »
OK the exinlaws where throwing out there old pc cause it was" to slow".   I brought it home and it worked good but the modem was slow.   Put in mew modem and been doing fine except trouble doing scans,defrag and upgrades.  Got it to do them and it wanted to restart and now when it starts all I get is my walpaper. No taskbar or shortcuts. Any ideas?  Windows ME




                         Terry
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline Jeff

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Re: PC help
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2007, 02:27:46 PM »
OK the exinlaws where throwing out there old pc cause it was" to slow".   I brought it home and it worked good but the modem was slow.   Put in mew modem and been doing fine except trouble doing scans,defrag and upgrades.  Got it to do them and it wanted to restart and now when it starts all I get is my walpaper. No taskbar or shortcuts. Any ideas?  Windows ME




                         Terry

One problem could be your operating system. Windows ME is a P.O.S.
Jeff

Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2007, 05:47:38 PM »
One problem could be your operating system. Windows ME is a P.O.S.
Jeff

Jeff is on the money.  ME is an abomination.  Windows ME not only made PC World's list of The 25 Worst Tech Products of All Time, but it also finished at spot #4.  Were I you, I might purchase Win XP for it.  Alternately, you might consider installing Ubuntu Linux on it if you want to play around with an operating system and software that will not cost you a dime.

In my opinion, Ubuntu is the most polished version of Linux for new users.  Its installation is straightforward, its driver support is better than Microsoft's in some areas, and you'll find all the software you need (an office suite, web browsers, photo editing, etc)  bundled free of charge.  If you just want to give it a spin, you can try the Ubuntu LiveCD, which will allow you to boot and try Ubuntu while not actually installing anything to your hard disk.

One of the best things about Ubuntu is that they will ship you installation and LiveCD disks for free: Order Ubuntu Disk.  Of course, more determined users can download the disk images and burn them to CD's.  Ordering pre-made disks is easier.

Edit: 12 Apr: Avoid Windows Vista at all costs.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 07:00:29 PM by burmashave »
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Offline Jeff

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Re: PC help
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2007, 08:55:59 PM »
I don't have any experience with Linux in any flavor.

I do know however that if the machine you're struggling with now has WinME, it's nowhere near powerful enough to run Vista. XP may even be a stretch. If you have Windows 2000, get that on there pronto. It's not the latest/greatest, but it's not bad, at least for a Windows OS.

FWIW, on my PC, I have Windows 2000 and haven't had too many problems.

But I just bought an iMac. It's pretty nice.

Jeff

Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2007, 09:35:04 PM »

FWIW, on my PC, I have Windows 2000 and haven't had too many problems.

But I just bought an iMac. It's pretty nice.

Jeff

Yup, Jeff, I actually prefer Win 2k over XP in many aspects -- it would be cheaper to go that route.

I agree with you about Mac's as well.  I tell anyone who is not a techno-geek to get a Mac if they can afford it.  Mac's just work.  I'm not implying they are perfect; however, they do not require the acquired user knowledge that Windows requires, nor do they require much intervention, as is the case for Windows hardware, drivers, etc.

As an aside, I admire how Microsoft has convinced most of its user base that any problem with the software is actually the user's fault.  I do some training, and those I train almost universally believe that their Windows problems, such as the one Terry is experiencing, are due to inexperience with Windows.  Furthermore, most users feel unique in this respect.  That is, they assume that most other users do not experience the same problems with Windows.

Would any of us purchase a car that we couldn't figure out how to drive in a few minutes?  Would average drivers purchase a car with the full knowledge that they would need to perform their own constant repairs or find a friend or family member to do it for them?  People I train will generally say that they are not learning fast enough or not trying hard enough.  Better still, they will tell me, especially with regard to getting hardware to run, that they just don't know enough about computers.  This is *always* said sheepishly. 

Apple and other software and hardware designers have demonstrated that usable and reliable software products can be delivered to new users.  The lesson is that Microsoft avoids much quality control by telling customers that Microsoft software is easy to use and multi-featured.  Thus, any difficulties must be due to user inexperience.  This also fits their strategy of constantly selling new releases based upon arrays of new features that Microsoft has cooked up.  New features provide eye candy that would be hard to deliver if all of new features needed to be extremely usable and reliable.

By way of disclaimer, I could go on about how Apple has its own strategies for minimizing issues, such as product defects.  As a technology consultant, I try to remain operating system agnostic.  Windows is very much the the best solution for some environments.  On the other hand, I feel that a Mac is the best solution for home or small office use -- provided that it is affordable and provided that the maintainer lacks a strong familiarity with Windows.  Linux and the Unices are another issue altogether.
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
'77 CB750k

Offline cb650

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Re: PC help
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 03:40:57 AM »
I have XP on my laptop (another freebie) and it does great.  Did set it up classic though.   Have seen 2000 pro at a pc place.   Whats it like?  Whats dif between pro and home?




                       Terry
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: PC help
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2007, 03:52:24 AM »
If you're a PC tinkerer at all, I'd second the suggestion to try Linux. 

I've installed OpenSuse linux on my aging P3 laptop and am really impressed.   And really since you can get it free and most distributions include a complete office suite, what have you got to lose except an evening of time?

Dave
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Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2007, 04:40:29 AM »
I have XP on my laptop (another freebie) and it does great.  Did set it up classic though.   Have seen 2000 pro at a pc place.   Whats it like?  Whats dif between pro and home?




                       Terry

Here's the short version for a Windows upgrade for you:
  - Use Windows 2000 if you have a license/disk for it.
  - XP Pro is not needed for home use.  Use XP Home instead.
  - Purchase an "OEM" "Upgrade" version of XP to save lots of cash.
  - Non "Upgrade" XP licenses are very expensive (about $190).
  - Consider purchasing a new PC if you do not have a Win ME or 98 installation disk needed for an "Upgrade" install.
  - If purchasing a new machine, purchase one with XP installed (instead of Vista).
I hope that makes sense.

Here is the longer version:

Offhand, except for the big difference in price, I can't remember the specific differences between Win XP Home and Pro.  What I do know is that the average user will likely never need the additional features in Win XP Pro.  Another thing to think about Win XP is that Microsoft just announced that it will no longer be selling XP through PC manufacturers effective the end of this year.  User licenses will still be available through retailers; however, a license purchased from a retailer now can be installed on a new computer later on (provided it is uninstalled from the previous machine).

Win XP is very similar to Win 2000.  In my opinion, many of the Win XP "enhancements" only served to make it more confusing than Win 2k.  Win 2k is very usable; however, Microsoft did not market it for home use.  Win 2k looks much like Win 98; however, is much, much more stable and more advanced.  The best reason for upgrading to Win XP is that its security features are improved over Win 2k and especially over Win ME and 98.  Most of these security features require little user involvement; however, when they do, they can be confusing.  Foremost among these security features is what Microsoft calls a "firewall."  This feature makes XP PC's much more secure out of the box when connecting to a network or the internet. 

Note that Win 2k is no longer available.  Unless you have a Win 2k license, your best bet might be Win XP.  Newegg (http://tinyurl.com/2aal4l) has the XP Home OEM Upgrade Edition for about $90.  That mouthful means that it is cheaper by virtue of the fact that you are upgrading from Windows ME, and that saves you a bundle.  OEM means that the license is technically for an Original Equipment Manufacturer, and that brings the price down to $90.  OEM licenses do not come with the basic free Microsoft support, and they do not come packaged in giant shiny boxes.  If you do purchase XP, make certain that you retain the license code information.  You will need this every time you install it.  As for Newegg, I purchase nearly all of my equipment and software from them.  They are absolutely reputable, their prices are always competitive, and their shipping is usually lighting fast, even when shipped at standard rates.

The caveat for purchasing an XP Home "Upgrade" license is that it will only install if a previous Windows version (Windows 98 or ME) is installed or if you have an installation disk for one of these.  Win 2k Pro must be upgraded to XP Pro (much more expensive still).  If you do not have a valid Win 98 or ME install disk, you would need the Win XP Full version, and as that runs about $190.  At that cost, you'd prolly want to think about upgrading your PC altogether.
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
'77 CB750k

Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 05:17:53 AM »
If you're a PC tinkerer at all, I'd second the suggestion to try Linux. 

I've installed OpenSuse linux on my aging P3 laptop and am really impressed.   And really since you can get it free and most distributions include a complete office suite, what have you got to lose except an evening of time?

Dave

I agree.  If nothing else, take a look at this article, Ubuntu: Who Needs Vista?, published just a few days ago.  It's written by a long time user long time Windows user who shares his experience with Ubuntu.  I still think that Ubuntu is a great choice for new users; however, openSUSE would be my second choice.  A user new to Linux would not go wrong either way.  Among the distributions popular for users new to Linux, I do recommend absolutely avoiding Fedora and Mandriva because I feel that they are not as reliable as Ubuntu, OpenSuse or Knoppix.  Personally, I use Gentoo, Open BSD (Unix), Win 2k and Win XP.  I've used a scad of others, and I plan to migrate my workstation and my laptop to Arch Linux soon.

Also, on the Vista front, I caught this article, Vista DRM could hide malware, just last night.  It's the type of thing I'm reading weekly about Vista. 

There is joy to discover with any of these Linux distributions in that software installation is not a matter of purchasing software and then installing it.  Most Linux distributions come with a tool that automatically downloads and installs software for you.  One of the things that differentiates distributions is how the distribution handles software download and installation.  Another thing that differentiates distributions is the variety of software available for automagic installation, although all provide a vast base of the software available for Linux.  As an avowed software slut, I can say that I have over 200 applications installed and running smoothly on my laptop and workstation.  Of these, all except 5 are free of charge.

Consider this.  When I want to install a piece of software in Gentoo, let's say Firefox, all I do is type "emerge firefox" in a command window.  If I want to uninstall it, I type "emerge --unmerge firefox".  The operating system handles the downloads and manages any dependencies and potential conflicts.  Upgrading a piece of software is just as easy, "emerge firefox".  Understand that moving to Linux involves some learning; however, many of the distributions have a Live CD that allows you to test run the operating system (I'm sure that OpenSuse provides this also).  Try that with Windows.  Live CD's are fully functional; you can use them just as you would your PC.  The primary difference is that it will run slower.  And speaking of, Linux will run smoothly and happily on ancient equipment with less memory and much smaller hard drives.  In fact, a Live CD can run without a hard drive installed in the PC.

[edit 13 April: typo]
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 09:18:11 AM by burmashave »
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
'77 CB750k

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Re: PC help
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 07:05:09 AM »
what are the specs of your pc?  That is want you need to base things on.  Ubuntu is ok. It works alright but will require quite a bit of your time to learn how to use correctly but wait, any OS does, even mac. Mac is no easier to use than any other system. I know plenty of staff and faculty where I work that get stumped by mac. So dont fall for the fan boy crap.   

Ubuntu says it requires 256 ram and like a 1gig cpu. I have the ram but only a 850 P3. It runs fine though if maybe a little slow. Video can be a weak area of ubuntu though. depends on your vid card. Ubuntu does have a user forum though, kinda like ours and most people there are quite helpful. There is a lot of free software but not all of it is click and install. Some of it requires terminal work to even download. Synaptics is ok for getting some software otherwise there is also automatix.

Windows: I avoid 200 like the plague. It is so slow a person can go grey while waiting for its THREE start up screens to complete. It takes FOREVER to boot even on a fast system. It is stable though. However, its plug and play capacity is limited and most new hardware and software is not being ported to 2000. 2000 also probably will not be supported by microsoft much longer. That means no more security updates or anything. that also means that even software from MS will not be made to work on 2000. 2000 does require less ram than ubuntu or xp but I would be very surprised to find it new and with that said, licensing will be iffy.

XP is the much better system. DO NOT get the update. The update will only cause issues in the long run. See, xp does not run over DOS at all. ME does. So if you update, it will replace certain files but will leave other ones behind. This was even a problem with just upgrading from 95 to 98.  Get the full version of home. It will be all you need. One thing though is that you MUST have 256 ram IF you want to use the system restore after you install service pack 2. If you dont, you will need to disable as many start up services as possible to maintain a stable and somewhat speedy system. I suppose you might be ok with 196. You can search around for the best price but you need the retail version not the oem unless you are buying a new motherboard, HDD and Ram. It is not cheap for home, about $180 BUT XP will be fully supported by microsoft till 2014. SO you will still get upgrades till then and more than likely your pc will die before that time! :)  XP is faster than 2000 by a long shot. It is stable and will continue to get support from hardware and software vendors.

Mac is not even an option unless you buy a new pc.

If you want cheap, then ubuntu is the way HOWEVER open office documents can only be opened by open office because no other office suite will open them. So you must keep software compatibility in mind. 
If you want to continue with what you know, XP is probably the best system microsoft has ever made. Other than 3.1 ;)

Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: PC help
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2007, 07:24:25 AM »
Ok, a word from the Mac Side...I've had PCs, but I've used macs since 1992. It's not Mac snobbery (something we're accused of often), but as was said above, "Macs Just work". It's true. They're very simple, and if there's a problem, very easy to work on.
Architecuraly, the Mac OS is much more straightforward. Open a folder and there's your stuff. None of the "find drive c" stuff. Macs have had Network capabilities since the beginning, which came in really handy when I went to DSL. Back when Scuzzy was king, they even came with a built in Scuzzy card, and now have both USB and Firewire.
In most cases, you don't need to load drivers. Cameras and MP3 players show up as external drives on your desktop. My Epson print drivers are included in the OS. Also, Itunes is included.
Mac has always thought ahead and included what you need. No worries about nickle and diming you for additional drivers and peripherals.
For home or small business use, Mac is easy to use and efficient.
Their only real drawback in a large work environment is that on a network, they use a huge amount of bandwidth, which can slow the whole network down.
Price isn't necessarily an impediment anymore either. You can get a 1.6 Ghz MiniMac (about the size of a coaster @ about 6x6") with a generous amount of Ram starting at around 500.00.
Another plus is that in general, Macs don't get viruses, Not because they're not succeptable, but that for some reason, the jerks who write them don't write them for Macs! I've been running for five years now with no antivirus software with no ill effects.
In general, when I've had problems with programs, they've been Microsoft programs...I recently switched from Word to an old free program called Appleworks. It does the same thing more simply and reliably.
I think everybody should switch over to Mac. What they say in the comercials is exactly right on the nose.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: PC help
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 08:05:17 AM »
If you want cheap, then ubuntu is the way HOWEVER open office documents can only be opened by open office because no other office suite will open them. So you must keep software compatibility in mind. 

Yeah, but you can save docs in microsoft office format, so compatibility isn't an issue in that regard.

Jeff

eldar

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Re: PC help
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2007, 10:15:03 AM »
If you have the right version of open office. But even so, software is a concern on ALL platforms.

As for macs just working, I must have missed that memo. We have just as many problems with macs as with pc. Apples latest release is bug ridden. They are very proprietary with hardware, even the new x86 macs.
For your folder analogy. On XP I click my documents, wow there it all is. just as easy as mac. When you need to search for something, it can take just as many clicks with mac as with pc. There are plenty of folders you can go into on a mac. You just follow a bit of a different path and thats it.

Not all printer drivers are included on mac. There are many hp printers that are not, this applies to all printers. You are still following the old mac line of thought that windows includes nothing when in fact, there is quite a bit included. You must also remember that XP is almost 6 years old. Vista has a HUGE driver base. Vista though has lots of loose ends that need to be tied up. Once done, probably with SP1, it will most likely be a very good system. Also dont start on the whole service pack thing, mac does it too, they just call it  10.4 and so on. 

Bottom line is that there is no end all be all OS. They all have their strong points and their weak points and none is really any better than another for your average home user.

Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 10:26:41 AM »
what are the specs of your pc?  That is want you need to base things on.  Ubuntu is ok. It works alright but will require quite a bit of your time to learn how to use correctly but wait, any OS does, even mac. Mac is no easier to use than any other system. I know plenty of staff and faculty where I work that get stumped by mac. So dont fall for the fan boy crap.   

Ubuntu says it requires 256 ram and like a 1gig cpu. I have the ram but only a 850 P3. It runs fine though if maybe a little slow. Video can be a weak area of ubuntu though. depends on your vid card. Ubuntu does have a user forum though, kinda like ours and most people there are quite helpful. There is a lot of free software but not all of it is click and install. Some of it requires terminal work to even download. Synaptics is ok for getting some software otherwise there is also automatix.

Windows: I avoid 200 like the plague. It is so slow a person can go grey while waiting for its THREE start up screens to complete. It takes FOREVER to boot even on a fast system. It is stable though. However, its plug and play capacity is limited and most new hardware and software is not being ported to 2000. 2000 also probably will not be supported by microsoft much longer. That means no more security updates or anything. that also means that even software from MS will not be made to work on 2000. 2000 does require less ram than ubuntu or xp but I would be very surprised to find it new and with that said, licensing will be iffy.

XP is the much better system. DO NOT get the update. The update will only cause issues in the long run. See, xp does not run over DOS at all. ME does. So if you update, it will replace certain files but will leave other ones behind. This was even a problem with just upgrading from 95 to 98.  Get the full version of home. It will be all you need. One thing though is that you MUST have 256 ram IF you want to use the system restore after you install service pack 2. If you dont, you will need to disable as many start up services as possible to maintain a stable and somewhat speedy system. I suppose you might be ok with 196. You can search around for the best price but you need the retail version not the oem unless you are buying a new motherboard, hard disk drive and Ram. It is not cheap for home, about $180 BUT XP will be fully supported by microsoft till 2014. SO you will still get upgrades till then and more than likely your pc will die before that time! Smiley  XP is faster than 2000 by a long shot. It is stable and will continue to get support from hardware and software vendors.

Mac is not even an option unless you buy a new pc.

If you want cheap, then ubuntu is the way HOWEVER open office documents can only be opened by open office because no other office suite will open them. So you must keep software compatibility in mind.
If you want to continue with what you know, XP is probably the best system microsoft has ever made. Other than 3.1 Wink

Hey Eldar, I agree with much of what you say; however, my Mac recommendation is not fan boy crap.  I don't even use a Mac.  I'm not even particularly fond of Apple.  I could say, and have said, much negative about Apple products; however, my recommendation would stand.  True, any computer requires learning.  True, some people have difficulty learning how to use a Mac especially if they have used Windows for some time.

I am a technology consultant.  I advised based upon user needs.  Terry's original question indicated that he is not likely a Windows power user.  I have recommended Macs to many relatively unschooled Windows users who could afford a Mac.  None have been the least disappointed.  They like their new Macs because hardware management is vastly simpler than any version of Windows will ever be (considering that Windows must support hardware from a theoretically unlimited number of vendors).  Inexperienced users like their Macs because the user interfaces have been designed for usability.  Use is intuitive.  As a designer of user interfaces, I can say that many Microsoft interfaces absolutely belong in a hall of shame.  Period.  I could start a new thread about their neglect in this area.  The best thing about putting a Mac in the hands of someone intimidated by PC's is that most come away with a feeling of comfort and empowerment over their PC technology.

Some things are designed much better for ease of learning.  This is true for any product.  This is an Apple strength.  Does this make Apple the best OS on the planet?  Heck no!  Windows is a much better choice for many environments -- especially for many enterprise deployments.   I would only rarely recommend Windows as a server, never a Mac and rarely Linux -- preferring to recommend Unix and Solaris for servers where possible.  There is no best OS, or any product for that matter.  There is best for a purpose, use and user.  Does Mac's ease of use mean that it has a direct interface to the brain -- requiring no learning at all?  No.

As for MS Office documents, are you familiar with OpenOffice?  I have access to both MS Office and OpenOffice; however, I primarily use OpenOffice, despite the fact that I am a power user of Word, Excel and Powerpoint.  OpenOffice is a true office suite in that the applications were designed together as a whole, as compared to MS Office, which is a collection of separate office applications that Microsoft acquired separately from other companies.  Try to do advanced formatting in Excel, Word, Powerpoint and Visio.  There are few similarities beyond the buttons and menus.  OpenOffice is compatible with MS Office.  It opens, edits and saves MS Office files without a hiccup.  OpenOffice is becoming the de facto standard in many countries outside the US because of cost and because of the fact that nearly all MS Office files are saved in a proprietary binary format.  Try OpenOffice for free.  Better still, use it permanently for free.  By the way, OpenOffice demands a much smaller hard drive footprint than MS Office.

Is OpenOffice better than MS Office?  No.  Many enterprises would not realize a cost savings by switching to OpenOffice; however, enterprises needing true open standards would definitely benefit from OpenOffice.  Is OpenOffice a full office suite ready for prime time use?  Yes.  Does it require a steeper learning curve for users familiar with MS Office?  Yes; however, it costs nothing in terms of dollars to use.  That cost savings, plus MS Office compatibility, make it a strong choice for the home small office user. 

As for Win 2k boot times, I feel that there are many more important issues than boot times.  Boot times are a minor inconvenience.  Being frustrated because you cannot figure out how to do a simple task is a major inconvenience.  Win2k, Win XP and most other OS's can be optimized for boot speed.  Also, boot speed should not be measured by the time from power on to presentation of a desktop.  XP optimizes "boot time" by pushing many activities back to after the desktop is presented.  This means that XP runs very slowly after the desktop is presented until all the background activities have finished.  To me, boot time represents the time from power on to a usable OS.  Other OS's beside Linux have tried to simulate shorter boot times, and I believe that Fedora is the worst offender.  Until recently, Fedora took forever to boot precisely because of its elaborate splash screens, etc. that are intended to make the user feel that the process is going along swiftly.  Also, and more importantly, security issues are a much more important convenience issue than boot times.

Note that Linux and Unix OS's require rebooting only on an extremely infrequent basis.  As I type, my workstation has been up for 21 days, 19 hours and 8 minutes.  This is a relatively short amount of time for me, despite the fact that I maintain my workstation on the cutting edge.  Linux, Solaris and Unix rarely require rebooting for software installs, driver installs, driver loading and loading, etc.  The most common reason for a required Unix, Linux or Solaris reboot is an upgrade of the OS, and here, upgrades are incremental and much, much more seamless than upgrading the OS on a Win platform.  Many of these servers run over a year between reboots.

As for hardware requirements, given that a user has a PC that was likely set up with Win ME originally, one can easily assume that the hardware set is much closer to Linux requirements as opposed to Win requirements, either for Win 2k or XP.  I've never seen the specs you quote for Ubuntu use -- the official specs are much, much lower, as are posted user experiences (approx. 700 Mhz CPU with about 128 Mb RAM).  I've used Linux live Cd's on PC's with processors not far above 1 Ghz, and I seriously doubt that 1GB RAM is needed; however, I would be more than happy to see some more information in that area -- precisely because I often recommend Ubuntu.  If requirements for Ubuntu are as you say, I can easily recommend Linuxes with much lower hardware requirements.

Yes, using an upgrade license can sometimes be a pain; however, one must consider whether it is worth an extra $100 for the user.  Given that the user is not expressing a strong desire to trash the PC and buy new, it is difficult to advise an additional $100 investment above the $90 upgrade price.  Additionally the entire $180 investment for a full XP seat would likely be wasted once the user purchases his or her next PC, which will probably come with XP or Vista installed.  My recommendation is that if the user is going to sink $180 into an old PC, that user should seriously consider putting that $180 towards a new PC with XP already installed.  True, the version of XP on the new PC is not usually transferable between machines; however, this is a detail that likely means little to an average user.  Have I purchased full licenses for XP?  Yes.  I build my own PC's, and ethically, I do not have a licensed previous version of Win 98 or ME to use for the upgrade.

Lastly note that in my post, I tried to keep things as simple as possible -- shooting for the level of experience of the user.  This is a very important user needs issue.  I responded quickly precisely for that reason.  Time and time again I have witnessed well meaning posters confuse and intimidate an experienced user with technical questions and details.  I provided a solid summary -- with options -- based on information the user had provided.  I consider Terry's information sufficient to provide a preliminary set of options.  I provided supporting detail for those options.  I endeavor to make my recommendations as clear as possible, and I work to present options at the level of the user experience.  By the way, I know that this discussion has progressed far beyond what Terry needs for his PC. 

[edit 13 April: fixed many typos numerous typos and clarified some detail]
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 11:50:32 AM by burmashave »
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
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Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 10:32:01 AM »
If you have the right version of open office. But even so, software is a concern on ALL platforms.


Right version???  The version freely available on the OO website is fully compatible, as is the version bundled with all major Linux distros.  OO will run on any OS capable of running Java, and that includes all OS's and platforms most users are likely to ever to encounter.  Compare that with MS Office, which will run on any platform supported by Microsoft and any OS supported by Microsoft.  Can you get interoperability between MS Office and other OS's -- without using OO?  Only by using tools such as Vmware (expensive), Wine (a pain for average users) or other OS emulation.
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'77 CB750k

eldar

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Re: PC help
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 02:58:22 PM »
Well for open office, I have heard of problems it has with office 2007. I am sure that will be resolved within the year. However the matter of software being compatable still stands. It is always a concern.  Aside from that, open office works very well and it has all the features most people need.  I merely used it for reference as there HAS been issues in the past and there still sometimes is.

As for rarely ahving to reboot linux, Maybe it is just ubuntu but I have to reboot almost anytime there is a software update. But therein is one of the problems with linux, every build is different and that can cause no end of headaches to people. That is the blessing and curse that is open source. It requires a person to be more skilled in their pc use unless they just use the basic system funtions. Ubuntu also is not as laptop freindly as XP is. It can have problems with hibernation. There are problems with docking stations. Even problems with dual monitors. Some of these are relatively simple fixes and some are not.With areas like this, windows and mac beats linux.
As for uptime, who cares. Are you running a server? If not then you should shut down at the end of every day. Notice I said day and not use. There is nothing to be gained other than a higher electric bill, by leaving your pc on overnight or when it will not be used for long periods of time. If I am going to be done with my pc for a couple hours, I shut it down. I have always done this, it has cause no hardware or software trouble and I seriously doubt it ever will.

Also, my comment on the update still stands, by the end of this year, you will no longer be able to get a new system from ANY of the major computer vendors. Why? Microsoft will not be allowing it anymore. But so? You can still get a custom system and load it yourself or get a del and just format it, or if you really want to be thorough? us a disk wipe program such as DBAN with does a 3 pass over your drive to remove data. Then jsut put on XP. I could never in good faith ever tell someone to get the "upgrade" disk. Not after seeing how many issues it causes.

Also, macs used to be user friendly, OSX changed all that. Now in many cases, people are just as confused by osx as by windows. It is a horse a piece. In some cases hardware is easier, in some it is harder. It pretty much evens out between mac and windows.
Do you remember the boondoggle that was called the E-mac? You know, the mac with crap ass graphics that could flake out at a moments notice? Oh you speak of the minimac, the mac that basically takes laptop components and puts them into a square box? Yeah they work ok but nothing to write home about. Pretty weak graphics there too. The mini is a gimmick really. Kinda like the 20th aniversary mac I think it was. $7000 for a machine that was completely worthless. Also with the mini, remember it has its large power brick on the cord just like a laptop, only larger. you ever try to add ram to a mini? you could do about 10 laptops of ANY kind in the time it would take to do 1 mini.

You speak as a tech consult, I speak as the person who has to help the people that actually use these things. but again, neither system is better.

Offline mlinder

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Re: PC help
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 04:11:37 PM »
Ubuntu is the easiest to use linux distribution, followed closely by SUSe, in my opinion.

You will have to get your hands dirty getting them to play mp3's and such, and you will need the linux version of realplayer, etc...

Here, go read this: http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OCwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=

/edit: I got my uncle up and running on ubuntu. Just opened up 'universe', installed everything, and it all worked well for him.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 04:15:39 PM by mlinder »
No.


Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 05:29:59 PM »
Well for open office, I have heard of problems it has with office 2007. I am sure that will be resolved within the year. However the matter of software being compatable still stands. It is always a concern.  Aside from that, open office works very well and it has all the features most people need. 

...You speak as a tech consult, I speak as the person who has to help the people that actually use these things. but again, neither system is better.

Gee, Eldar, *I have actually used* and am very, very familiar with all of the products to which I referred.  The only exception is Vista, which I have not used; however I stay informed about it.  As for OO interoperability with MS Office 2007, how can this be a big issue except for corporate environments -- especially given the relatively small installed base for MS Office 2007?  OO is now compatible with Office 2007; however, it is not compatible with MS Office Open XML (OOXML) format.  This is because OpenOffice.org, many other software vendors, many countries, and even some states wish to see the Open Document standard -- pioneered years ago by OpenOffice -- implemented.  Note that MS Office 97-2000 is no more compatible with MS Office 2007 than is OpenOffice.

You said that the needs of the user should be considered; yet, your criticism of OO is that it is not interoperable with MS OOXML? 
Criticizing OO for lack of full MS Office 2007 interoperability -- with respect to a basic home user -- is pure FUD.  I've have fewer reliability issues with OO than I have have with MS Office, and I've used MS Office since 1996 and OpenOffice since it was StarOffice.  Do you remember what MS Office 2k was like before the giant SP1?  I've also watched a very user base struggle with a needless upgrade from MS Office 2000 to MS Office 2003.

Thinking again about user needs, you say that I "should" shut down my PC every day?  I believe that there are no universal "shoulds" about providing technical advice.  Did you consider my needs?  I like my workstation to be on, and more importantly, I need to have a machine on because I manage a server, and I have set up the server to send alerts for important events.  I could easily recommend to you that you shut your PC off every time you are done using it, instead of shutting it off once a day.  That would save even more electricity.  Better still, you should set it to hibernate after 5 minutes of non-use and then shut it down before you walk away from it.

So, why is uptime important?  It is important because it demonstrates one aspect of quality and reliability.  Windows, of any version, cannot begin to match the uptimes that is easily achieved by Linux, Unix and Solaris.  Set up properly, they do not crash as often as Windows, nor do they require reboots for most issues that force a Windows reboot.  I cannot comment on your need to reboot Ubuntu often.  Again, I would like to hear more about this because I have not experienced it, nor have I read anything about it.  All Linux distributions share commonality with respect to when reboots would be forced, so it is surprising that Ubuntu would not be consistent with other distros in this area.

As a consultant, I have trained people to use MS Win 2k, Win XP and Office 2k.  I stand by the fact that people I train enthusiastically recommend me to others.  I have developed software in- and designed deployments for- both Windows and Linux environments.  I am the sysadmin for a server running OpenBSD, and I have developed scripts and software that make that server run automatically for the most part.  I have installed and used Win 98, 2k and XP; many varieties of Linux, including Gentoo, Fedora, Redhat, and Ubuntu; Unix (OpenBSD); Solaris; MS Office 2000; OpenOffice 1.0 and 2.0.  I have written an MS Word application for use by my clients.  I could not count the number of times I've installed Win NT 4, 2k and XP.  I currently have a workstation running Gentoo Linux; a testbed running OpenBSD, a laptop that dual boots Windows XP and Gentoo Linux; Windows 2000 running under emulation on my workstation, Windows XP running under emulation on my laptop; OpenOffice on all platforms (except the testbed); and Office 2000 running under emulation on my workstation and natively on my laptop.  Plus, I've set up Puppy Linux on a bootable thumbdrive.  I do not own a Mac because the cost is much too high for something I would not use on a day-to-day basis.
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'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
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Offline Jeff

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Re: PC help
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 06:49:39 PM »
[hijack]
Hey BurmaShave, my wife wants to know why you chose that for your username.

Jeff
[/hijack]

Offline heffay

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Re: PC help
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 07:28:56 PM »
i have a master disk for windows 95... ran well when parked
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2007, 09:18:29 PM »
[hijack]
Hey BurmaShave, my wife wants to know why you chose that for your username.

Jeff
[/hijack]

Is this a hijack or a speed bump? ;-)  I'm a big Tom Waits fan, and his song Burma Shave is one of my favorites.  It's a sad song about a guy and gal who head out of town looking for something better.  There's a decent version on Youtube.

If you're not familiar with it, "Burma Shave" refers to the roadside ads for shaving cream.  Like Waits, I collect archaic words and sayings. 
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
'77 CB750k

Offline Jeff

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Re: PC help
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2007, 09:30:11 PM »
Yeah, I've heard of the signs, but my wife wouldn't accept that as the answer. Thanks
Jeff

eldar

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Re: PC help
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM »
You keep on falling off your rocker with OO. I USED IT AS AN EXAPMLE!. Also so you know. office2000 docs can be opened by 2007. 2007 docs cannot be opened by 2000 or even 2003 UNLESS the doc is saved in the 2003 format. Geez buddy, I used it to show that software compatibility needs to be considered. Not that OO cannot be used with Office.  But to argue more with you jsut cause you cant let it go, Even if you put the doc in a standard office format with OO, Office still cannot always open it. Just a simple fact.

Of course you type before you read, remonds me of your WW2 post about the french. 
I said "As for uptime, who cares. Are you running a server? If not then you should shut down at the end of every day. Notice I said day and not use. There is nothing to be gained other than a higher electric bill, by leaving your pc on overnight or when it will not be used for long periods of time. If I am going to be done with my pc for a couple hours, I shut it down. I have always done this, it has cause no hardware or software trouble and I seriously doubt it ever will."  You just said you run a server, clearly you did not read very well. MOST people DO NOT run servers in their home. As such, there is no need to leave your machine on for days at a time. All that serves to do is wear out your fans faster and attract more dirt. Did you know that electricity can attract dirt? Also, as has been shown by many test, hibernate does not save that much power except maybe in a laptop running on its battery. The Xbox360 and PS3 use almost as much power in hibernate. Now I am sure you will those are not computers, but in essence they are as they have cpus that are much more powerful than most cps had jsut a couple years ago. Same with hard drives and vid cards. many people actually mod them to use as computers. So for a homw computer, it is best to strike a middle ground and that depends on how a person uses their machine. But shutting it down if you are not going to use it for a couple hours will harm nothing, it will lower your electric bill, it will also require that much less coal burned and will also help lower the strain on our nations weak power grid. All good things. Servers once again, even though I have already stated it TWICE, are different. But to blast your misconception once again about windows. Windows server has great up time. Windows 2k has great up time and XP has great up time as well. I have seen xp boxes up for months with no restarts. But again, uptime does not translate to reliability EXCEPT FOR SERVERS! Once again, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A PERSON WHO HAS A SERVER!

I work on a private campus, PRIVATE. We do both mac and windows DAILY. We deal with students and faculty and support staff daily. We have a range of machines from 350 megahertz to some of the later dual core machines. We have emacs, we have Imacs, we have minimacs, we even have a few of the macs that have all the equipment mounted in the base with a neck that holds the monitor, cant think of the name right off hand. We run G5s. I deal with office issues everyday. We even deal with software we dont even support such as filezilla.  I have used ubuntu. thats it. But I am a member of the Ubuntu forums and I read about the issues people have. Issues that have existed before Ubuntu was created. I have created dual boot, big deal. Not very hard to put 2 partitions on a drive and load 2 different systems. It is also not hard to put on 3 partitions. 1 for XP, one as a FAT32 share and 1 as ext3 for ubuntu.  Since XP cannot read or write ext3 format and while ubuntu can read NTFS, it still cannot write to it, yet. However both can read and write fat32.

Now if we can get back to the original issue.
To the original poster, you should find out your system resources. That will then tell you what you can do. That is if you want to keep that computer. Then put in what you would want to spend. If we have your system specs, we can advise you what your options are. I will say this though, if you have an old pc and it has low resources, I would recommend against trying to upgrade it. You can always take heffay up on his win95 offer but that would be very tempig you could even get things to work. If you could find win98 2nd edition, you can still find old drivers for hardware and you can still get all the updates till microsoft officially dropped support. You just need to download EI6 to get them.


Offline burmashave

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Re: PC help
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2007, 01:41:02 PM »
Hey Eldar, no more arguments here.  This has become far too personal.  I respect your knowledge regarding motorcycles and otherwise.
Quote from: SOHC Digger, RIP
'Ere's whatcha do, Guvna', just throw a couple dookie logs in the hearth and bob's your uncle!
'77 CB750k

eldar

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Re: PC help
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2007, 01:54:09 PM »
Well I never tried to argue it. I was mainly using examples for things to look for when making a choice. I am pretty sure our little bicker looked like 2 cyber nerds arguing about which superhero has better powers! ;D