Topic: CB650 - Large draw from Regulator Rectifier

[papi_sosaa]

Noticed my battery was dead pretty much right after I turn on my bike (accessory mode). After going through the motogadget app, AUX2, which goes to the Regulator Rectifier, appears to be drawing 1.7-1.9A. If I disconnect it, the draw goes away.

Obviously the first thing to do is test the Reg/Rec but if that's not the problem, what would be next in line? The generator? Starter?

The setup is a Anti-Gravity Lithium battery with a Rick's Reg/Rec.

[papi_sosaa]

Wiring Diagram for reference.

[scottly]

When turned on, the regulator draws current to energize(magnetize) the alternator field coil.

[papi_sosaa]

When turned on, the regulator draws current to energize(magnetize) the alternator field coil.

So the generator might be shorting out?

[scottly]

It's normal for the regulator to draw power; that's how it works.

[papi_sosaa]

It's normal for the regulator to draw power; that's how it works.

So I disconnected the generator from the Reg/Rec and reconnected the Reg/Rec to the harness and the draw was gone. Voltage started to drop as soon as I plugged the generator back into the Reg/Rec.

Unfortunately I do not have a multimeter to test the generator tonight but I took it off and took some pictures. 1 of the wires looks like it's broken and maybe just hanging on but there's cracking on the gel/goo they put around it.

[scottly]

If the regulator isn't drawing power, there's something wrong: it's supposed to draw power in order to do it's job! The current should actually be higher, but your battery is seriously discharged. The regulator isn't at fault, nor the alternator, at least as far as the draw is concerned.

[papi_sosaa]

If the regulator isn't drawing power, there's something wrong: it's supposed to draw power in order to do it's job! The current should actually be higher, but your battery is seriously discharged. The regulator isn't at fault, nor the alternator, at least as far as the draw is concerned.

When I took those pictures, the battery was at 11.9v before having the Reg/Rec and generator connected and then drops to sub 10v after connecting both. If I plug ONLY the Reg/Rec into the harness, the voltage doesn't drop.

Is the generator really supposed to be drawing 1.7-1.9A when the bike isn't running?

[scottly]

When the reg regulator is turned on, it normally draws 2+ amps. As the battery gets charged back up with the engine running, the current drops to limit the output from the alternator to match the draw from ignition, lights etc.
A lithium battery at 11.9V with no load is discharged, so it's not surprising the voltage drops to 9.7V with such a low load. (The headlight alone can draw over 4 amps.) This can damage the battery. It should be recharged immediately. Do you have a lithium specific charger?

[papi_sosaa]

When the reg regulator is turned on, it normally draws 2+ amps. As the battery gets charged back up with the engine running, the current drops to limit the output from the alternator to match the draw from ignition, lights etc.
A lithium battery at 11.9V with no load is discharged, so it's not surprising the voltage drops to 9.7V with such a low load. (The headlight alone can draw over 4 amps.) This can damage the battery. It should be recharged immediately. Do you have a lithium specific charger?

It's normal to draw 2+ amps when the bike isn't the running? The reg/rec isn't drawing anything if the generator isn't plugged into it.

[scottly]

Yes, if the bike is turned on and ready to run, but not running, it's normal for the regulator to draw 2+ amps.
If you want to trouble-shoot your charging system you're going to need a voltmeter and a charged battery. One thing regarding the munit is that the regulator connection is often connected to Lock instead of Aux, so the regulator and the rest of the charging system bypass the munit entirely.

[papi_sosaa]

Yes, if the bike is turned on and ready to run, but not running, it's normal for the regulator to draw 2+ amps.

Interesting... if it's always drawing 2+ amps then I guess mines normal. Maybe the battery is toast.

If you want to trouble-shoot your charging system you're going to need a voltmeter and a charged battery.

I'm charging the lithium one right now and I've got a lead acid battery on a tender. I'll bring my multimeter home from work tomorrow and run some tests.

One thing regarding the munit is that the regulator connection is often connected to Lock instead of Aux, so the regulator and the rest of the charging system bypass the munit entirely.

I've been running this setup all summer and I've had no issues. Revival Cycles themselves even have it going to the AUX in one of their diagrams.

[papi_sosaa]

So I checked some values and compared them to both the Honda Workshop manual and the Clymer manual, here are my readings:

I used a Fluke 116 for all of these readings.

Stator
The workshop manual states there should be continuity across all 3 yellow wires, NO continuity to ground from any yellow wire, and the resistance measured across each yellow wire should be between 0.41 and 0.51 Ohm.

I measured continuity across all 3 wires, nothing to ground, and I was measuring between 0.4-0.5 Ohms.

The brushes also have plenty of life left.

Results: Stator seems fine.

Regulator Rectifier
Still looking for information regarding the Rick's Lithium Reg/Rec however I tested it based off OEM specs...
The workshop manual states that in the normal direction, measuring the green wire (Reg/Rec battery connector) to any yellow wire (Reg/Rec generator connector) should read between 5-40 Ohms. Measuring the red/white wire to any yellow wire should also read between 5-40 Ohms

Red multimeter lead to green and red/white, black on yellows
For green to yellows, I measured 2.9 to 3.1 M Ohms.
For red/white to yellows, I measured 1.2, 1.0, and 1.8 M Ohms.

In the reverse direction, green to any yellow and red/white to any yellow should read between 2000 Ohms / min.

Black multimeter lead to green and red/white, red on yellows.
For green to yellows, I measured 1.2 and 1.4 M Ohms.
For red/white to yellows, I measured 4, 2.7, and 5.7 M Ohms.

Results: Not sure if I measured this one right...

Rotor
Funny enough, the workshop manual had nothing in it regarding the rotor but the Clymer manual did...

Clymer states there should be no continuity between the slip rings and the center core. This manual also states there is no factory specified resistance (would explain why it isn't in the workshop manual) but there should be some, but low, resistance between the two slip rings (approximately between 0.40 to 0.50). A very high resistance (infinity reading) would indicate an open and the rotor should be replaced.

I measured no continuity between either slip ring and the center core but I measured anywhere between 4.2 to 4.8 Ohms across both slip rings.

Keep in mind, I cleaned the slip rings with contact cleaner and a clean rag.

I found two interesting things about this test...
1. I got different values based on where I put my leads; red on the outer ring and black on the inner ring gave me one value (4.2-4.8 Ohms), and reversing the leads gave me a different value that was jumping all over the place (8-18 Ohms).
2. The Clymer manual says resistance should be between 0.40 and 0.50 Ohms but based on other forum posts and aftermarket rotors, the nominal value is 4-6 Ohms.

Results: I guess it's fine?

Battery
Not sure if this was the right thing to do but I hooked up the lithium battery to one of those 100A (toaster-ish) load testers. You hold the button and it applies a constant load for however long they say to hold the button for.

Anyway, the lithium battery failed instantly.

I put the generator back together, hooked my ride-on mowers 12V battery to the bike, and left the key on. M-unit AUX2 (from generator/reg-rec) was pulling 2+ amps but the battery held at 12.4V for almost 5 minutes and then 12.3 for another 5 minutes.

Results: I need a new battery...

Can somebody give me some insight on the Reg/Rec measurements and Rotor measurement? I'm still curious on those.

[scottly]

The rectifier test is best done with a diode function on a digital meter, rather than a resistance test, due to the way a digital meter works. Look for a setting with a symbol like ->l- . With the diode setting, you will see a reading of about .5 with the leads in one direction and zero with the leads reversed. At this stage I wouldn't worry about it..
Your rotor measurement of 4.2-4.8 sounds correct..
You need to start the bike up and monitor the battery voltage to see if the charging system is working properly. If it is, then the question is what killed the lithium battery? The munit has a parking light "feature" that depending on the configuration and headlight setting when the unit is switched off feeds a lower voltage to the headlight, dimly illuminating it. If unnoticed it will drain the battery, which is death for lithium.

[papi_sosaa]

The rectifier test is best done with a diode function on a digital meter, rather than a resistance test, due to the way a digital meter works. Look for a setting with a symbol like ->l- . With the diode setting, you will see a reading of about .5 with the leads in one direction and zero with the leads reversed. At this stage I wouldn't worry about it..

So in diode mode:
Normal direction:
Red lead on green and black lead on the yellows, I was measuring 0.51-0.52V DC.
Red lead on red/white and black lead on the yellows, I was measuring overload (infinity) on all 3 yellows.

Reverse direction:
Black lead on green and red lead on the yellows, I was measuring overload (infinity) on all 3 yellows.
Black lead on red/white and red lead on the yellows, I was measuring 0.51-0.52V DC.

You need to start the bike up and monitor the battery voltage to see if the charging system is working properly. If it is, then the question is what killed the lithium battery? The munit has a parking light "feature" that depending on the configuration and headlight setting when the unit is switched off feeds a lower voltage to the headlight, dimly illuminating it. If unnoticed it will drain the battery, which is death for lithium.

The headlight isn't the issue, the battery is dying the minute the bike is on but not running and the headlight isn't even on. That 2 amp draw from the generator is instantly draining the lithium battery that is otherwise fine with the lead acid. I think this battery is just done.

[scottly]

I'm suggesting the parking light feature may have caused the death of the lithium battery in the first place.
I would use a lead acid battery for testing the charging system.

[papi_sosaa]

I'm suggesting the parking light feature may have caused the death of the lithium battery in the first place.

I'm not and have never used that feature.

I would use a lead acid battery for testing the charging system.

My lead acid battery can spin a starter with no load in the workbench vice but is unable to crank over the starter in my bike, even if I jump it directly. It starts cranking until it hits compression and then stops. Engine is fine as I can rotate it by hand.

Either all of my batteries are bad or the starter is going... I'm going to charge up the lead acid again but in the meantime, I'm going to swap the starter.

EDIT: Swapped the starter, same results

[papi_sosaa]

Replaced the battery with an AG-801 and all is well.

Bike is running fine (electrically speaking) and the charging system is fine. The 2.9A draw from the generator is also not draining the battery.