Topic: Dell garbage.

[HondaMan]

 
Rant:

In November 2025 I got a 'refurbished' laptop from Dell. Upon turning it on, it began installing Windows (10). So, when it asked for an Internet connection, I obliged it, as Windows always seems to have yet another 'update' going on. After 2 weeks of letting it self-reboot (or leaving it on all night) it was still doing this: finally one day I just disconnected it from the Internet and gave it another 5 reboots until it would respond to me. Then I partitioned the {large} SSD and installed Linux on the other partition: both OSes then ran - so long as I wasn't connected to the Internet, it turned out...

I then plugged it back into the Internet: about 10 minutes later, while using Windows to try to browse to this forum, it announced another "Windows Update, requires reboot" which it also did without my permission (I was trying to read a post here). Upon restart, it would only boot up a DELL logo, then reboot. It did this for almost 2 hours (as I went to supper), and was ALL that it would do, ever since. Upon getting into its BIOS, the 2 Windows bootup options it originally had were both gone, and I couldn't stop the constant rebooting to try to get into Linux.

So, I called Dell. They couldn't contact it over the Internet (because it didn't work anymore) and wanted me to go and find another Windows 10 computer, hook it up to the Internet, then dowload some sort of "fix" or other (my other computer uses Windows 7 because Windows 10 is pure $hit and doesn't touch anything I designate as 'important' - mostly I use Linux) and then somehow load that into the non-functioning computer. So, I told them that as this wasn't possible (let alone practical), how 'bout if I sent it to them, instead? OK, they sent me a box, and I sent it back to them.

Now they tell me the solid-state disk in the computer is bad and must be replaced, and I am supposed to pay them the original cost of the computer AGAIN to replace it, never mind that IT NEVER WORKED RIGHT YET to begin with.

I've only been designing, programming and building computers and automation since 1969, when a computer with 16k of RAM occupied an entire building (and used punch cards for communication). So, maybe there's something I'm missing about understanding how to design/build/program/automate entire factories using them, but it seems to me that Dell is on the hook here.

Not me.

[jgger]

I feel for ya, Hondaman. Years ago I bought a Dell desk top with as many bells and whistles I could afford. It had a CD drive DVD drive, and because I had a bunch of stuff on 3 1/2 floppy ,so it had that too. It came with a bunch ofstuff loaded and the backup cd's for all of them...........except for windows. Something happened and I had to reload the windows stuff. I called Dell and told them they didn't send my windows cd. They wanted me to buy it again! After arguing with about 32 levels of customer non support they finally said f-it and sent me the disc.

Maybe they will just refund your purchase price and they can keep it if you don't have anything on it you want. So much for warranties.

[Alan F.]

If you paid with a credit card there may be some level of buyer protection available.

If you didn't like Win10, you won't like Win11 either I'm afraid.

I'm very happy to have left that business behind for the most part, I no longer fight for the users.

[PeWe]

Have you tried to install the Dell computer's chipset drivers?

The drivers that will be installed with Windows are usually generic drivers to get it to run, not more.

Chipset drivers to get the internal disk- memory- CPU- USB - buses etc to run as designed.

BIOS settings should be correct in a new PC.
The BIOS might need to be upgraded too. It happens that they have bugs.

Graphic drivers for the used graphic board too.

All should be possible to download and install from Dell webpage.
Easier to upgrade today than  25- 30 years ago.
No need of creating a start disk on DOS.....

Last time I upgraded the BIOS I clicked on a file on the Internet that downloaded and probably created a virtual disk it could install from.

[scottly]

Support for Windows 10 ended in October, unless you paid a fee to extend coverage. When I downloaded Windows 11, it took hours and hours with a DSL speed of 5Mb/sec, without running a browser or doing anything else on the computer. The system locks up every now and then when running Firefox, and requires going into the task manager to end whatever task is hung up. Like Alan said, if you didn't like 10, you won't like 11 either.

[PeWe]

Maybe too old computer for  Windows 11?
My job laptop was a Lenovo Thinkpad with i7 processor. Installed with WIN 10.  No problem to update to Win 11.
But it ran slower and in need to change stupid default settings.
Searched and found how to run scripts changing Windows registry settings.

Next computer I have today, Lenovo P16 preinstalled with Win 11 also with i7 CPU.
32 GB memory, 1TB disk.
It is not fast. Probably company triple safety applications.

Win 11 need a rather new computer.

My next home PC  (Laptop) with Linux Ubuntu?
Less spy applications for big brother.
https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops

Games and other important applications have support.

Another cost before retire ....

[HondaMan]

I don't like Windows, period. It has NEVER been a decent operating system. I once watched a multi-million $$ company here in Colorado make the fatal choice of using Windows and Access to create a factory-wide data-acquisition system to collect and control manufacture of automotive airbags, on Windows 2000. Although I knew their Engineering group well (we had built 50% of all of their automation machinery for them when I was at MSA), they were not in favor of it: as a consulting member of their factory staff I voiced my opposition to it to their President, in person, and...ahem...firmly. He flat out told me I didn't know what I was talking about.

When the system was deployed, the entire factory stopped making parts anywhere, awaiting Windows to transport the request-to-build-orders for every part from a pair of Windows 2000 servers back to each machine in real time. It would simply lock up and stop running, unable to queue even requests-for-action. They hired Microsoft's own engineers to come out for 2 weeks: they told the factory owners that "they can't expect Windows to authorize hundreds of requests per second to make parts" in real time. They went home: the company's programmers worked for another month (while nothing came out of the plant) to "make it better", after which GM and MOPAR cancelled their orders (70% of this plant's market), and in one month a multi-multi-million $ company closed its doors, unable to build anything with the very same machinery they had used for the 5 years previous.

THAT's the "power" of Windows.

I haven't voluntarily used it since then, 2002.

[WhyNot2]

I don't like Windows, period. It has NEVER been a decent operating system. I once watched a multi-million $$ company here in Colorado make the fatal choice of using Windows and Access to create a factory-wide data-acquisition system to collect and control manufacture of automotive airbags, on Windows 2000. Although I knew their Engineering group well (we had built 50% of all of their automation machinery for them when I was at MSA), they were not in favor of it: as a consulting member of their factory staff I voiced my opposition to it to their President, in person, and...ahem...firmly. He flat out told me I didn't know what I was talking about.

When the system was deployed, the entire factory stopped making parts anywhere, awaiting Windows to transport the request-to-build-orders for every part from a pair of Windows 2000 servers back to each machine in real time. It would simply lock up and stop running, unable to queue even requests-for-action. They hired Microsoft's own engineers to come out for 2 weeks: they told the factory owners that "they can't expect Windows to authorized hundreds of requests per second to make parts" in real time. They went home: the company's programmers worked for another month (while nothing came out of the plant) to "make it better", after which GM and MOPAR cancelled their orders (70% of this plant's market), and in one month a multi-multi-million $ company closed its doors, unable to build anything with the very same machinery they had used for the 5 years previous.

THAT's the "power" of Windows.

I haven't voluntarily used it since then, 2002.

Soooooo......what would your best recommendation for operating system on a HP Envy x360 laptop be???

[HondaMan]

I've largely switched to Linux, with a couple of "parked" computers (with Windows on them) that support machinery around the world in case I'm needed (those computers are not plugged in until required for a service call). It has many vendors (almost all are free) and "flavors", but if you're Windows-oriented, you may like Ubuntu, which I use (since my wife sometimes uses my e-mail computers and she's only known Windows for the most part). Debian, if you're a code-writer, has some nice features, but they can also be added in Ubuntu, which I've done.

And, it's all freeware. It's also stable and well-supported.
And did I mention, it's not Microsoft's Windows, it's free, and it can be secured well enough to let me access the classified projects I've done (some worldwide) to be so qualified, and with almost no overhead, so it's lightning fast.

And it doesn't wear out your solid-state disk drive with constant thrashing and caching - which Windows does because it can't function without thrashing the disk constantly, wearing our your SSD for free. SSDs have limited write cycles, and Windows constantly caches and writes to the disk. Constantly. And you can't turn that off. This is what wrecked the disc in the laptop I am wrestling with Dell over, which they should have replaced to begin with if they were selling a "guaranteed" used product to me. The clue: their techs created 2 Windows boot segments and BIOS entry points, because they couldn't make Windows boot correctly. Then they threw it onto their website as a "guaranteed operational" used laptop, without testing the SSD to see if it was worn out or not.

I almost never buy new computers nowadays, for both cost reasons and because I usually need for it to hit the desk running - not "updating" for weeks before it's usable. I'm too old to have to spend weeks getting a stupid laptop to run - like this one from an incompetent service group (or person) at Dell.

[Stev-o]

Support for Windows 10 ended in October...

My old Lenovo desktop w/Win10 was old and slow so my wife bought me a new Dell [she worked there years ago]. It wasnt cheap and more computer than I'll ever need but it has been perfect.

We shy away from any electronics that have been refurbished, they obviously have had issues in the past and who know what or who has repaired them?

[HondaMan]

I have only bought (for myself) 1 new computer in the last 25 years. Especially with laptops, they come with built-in fatal problems when new: I learned a LOT about this when I worked at LG Automation. In that place we quit buying new computers for machinery and switched to entirely refurbished (or refurbished them ourselves) because they had been run for more than 6 months and still worked. My machinery must run 24/7/365 unattended, and while PLCs are used for the most machine control, interface to the company's Build Orders is almost always done with Windows. Machines can't tolerate the Windows erraticies (that's what we came to call its "erratic tendencies") because the machines are strictly time-dependent: Windows doesn't even know when it will respond to any given query, and can't be made to do so with any reliability. Linux can: you can dedicate one of its (typically 5) consoles to doing nothing but pacing the other consoles, and so predictively (another made-up term on the floors) rely on an answer from a database inquiry somewhere in the system.

You can ask Windows to do 'something', and it will queue that request according to its interrupt priority rank (Microsoft has a different secret term for this), but those interrupts are neither gospel, nor predictable. Machines can't live with that: their thousands of pounds of metals are already moving, expecting an answer before the travel is over. If the 'answer' doesn't show up in time, the part being made gets scrapped. Depending on where in the build process that part is, that can be many (even thousands of) dollars lost, just because Windows can't think straight, reliably, nor on time. Within a computer, that's simply ridiculous.

[Mikerts_Garage]

Oh man this thread hits close to home. Over the past couple years I've made been switching most of my devices to Linux. Particularly my 10 year old ASUS laptop that was fast on windows when new but dog slow now. I installed Linux lite and immediately saw a four fold improvement. Plus no more constant requests demands to update, no more windows telemetry tracking me, and no more insane bloat. And it's free!

I think for most people, who spend 90% of their time on a computer in an internet browser, and maybe another 9% of the time editing a document or 2: Linux is a perfect option (shout out Libre Office for being better than Microsoft Office IMHO, and free!).

I also have more powerful windows desktop i have to keep around mainly for program compatibility with Autodesk and Adobe products. My work around for this laptop wise is just to turn that computer on remotely and remote into it from my laptop; works a treat!

[HondaMan]

Oh man this thread hits close to home. Over the past couple years I've made been switching most of my devices to Linux. Particularly my 10 year old ASUS laptop that was fast on windows when new but dog slow now. I installed Linux lite and immediately saw a four fold improvement. Plus no more constant requests demands to update, no more windows telemetry tracking me, and no more insane bloat. And it's free!

I think for most people, who spend 90% of their time on a computer in an internet browser, and maybe another 9% of the time editing a document or 2: Linux is a perfect option (shout out Libre Office for being better than Microsoft Office IMHO, and free!).

I also have more powerful windows desktop i have to keep around mainly for program compatibility with Autodesk and Adobe products. My work around for this laptop wise is just to turn that computer on remotely and remote into it from my laptop; works a treat!

Yeah, I have several computers around, too, mostly for backward-compatibility issues with Windows-based programs. At one point I installed WinXP and Win10 virtual machines in my Linux (on this particular laptop) so I didn't have to go downstairs, boot for 15 minutes on one of those others, then look up some item in the related program(s) I wrote years ago. Some of the more classified programs don't see the Internet connection at all: those I still have to go downstairs, dust them off, etc... I just had to order 2 new BIOS batteries for 2 of the old Dells because they are so old they died and sometimes wouldn't boot. They have been OFF more than ON for now 8 years since those projects, but I'm encouraged to see Trump using the output of those machines these days.

The interesting thing about the Windows virtual machines on Ubuntu: they boot up in less than a minute, and aside from limited I/O port controls with them, are fully Windows as far as for running AutoCad, Word, SolidWorks and Adobe's stuff. It's real hard to justify using Windows beyond legacy support needs. I had to use it (Word 2000) for my last book because LibreOffice balked at more than 158 pages in one document: I've heard they have a buy-me workaround for that, but I already had the Office Suite on hand. Otherwise they seem to be equal, with Libre Office being easier to use overall.

[willbird]

Maybe too old computer for  Windows 11?
My job laptop was a Lenovo Thinkpad with i7 processor. Installed with WIN 10.  No problem to update to Win 11.
But it ran slower and in need to change stupid default settings.
Searched and found how to run scripts changing Windows registry settings.

Next computer I have today, Lenovo P16 preinstalled with Win 11 also with i7 CPU.
32 GB memory, 1TB disk.
It is not fast. Probably company triple safety applications.

Win 11 need a rather new computer.

My next home PC  (Laptop) with Linux Ubuntu?
Less spy applications for big brother.
https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops

Games and other important applications have support.

Another cost before retire ....

There is a proigram called "Rufus" that will let you force feed a computer win11. A software I use will soon be win11 only so I gave it a shot on an older not eligible for win11 box. Seemed to work fine. Rufus is a program maybe used by sysadmin that do not want to sit and answer every question along the way in the install.

Bill

[HondaMan]

Maybe too old computer for  Windows 11?
My job laptop was a Lenovo Thinkpad with i7 processor. Installed with WIN 10.  No problem to update to Win 11.
But it ran slower and in need to change stupid default settings.
Searched and found how to run scripts changing Windows registry settings.

Next computer I have today, Lenovo P16 preinstalled with Win 11 also with i7 CPU.
32 GB memory, 1TB disk.
It is not fast. Probably company triple safety applications.

Win 11 need a rather new computer.

My next home PC  (Laptop) with Linux Ubuntu?
Less spy applications for big brother.
https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops

Games and other important applications have support.

Another cost before retire ....

There is a proigram called "Rufus" that will let you force feed a computer win11. A software I use will soon be win11 only so I gave it a shot on an older not eligible for win11 box. Seemed to work fine. Rufus is a program maybe used by sysadmin that do not want to sit and answer every question along the way in the install.

Bill

You may well be right about who made that, Bill! I've had to 'force' Windows of various genres to run in other computers, too, usually because that machine's builder (not me) decided to use Windows for [something in] the machine. The most ridiculous one of these was a credit-card-programming machine I built for the local credit-card-maker (they make every one you can name, and those that you see hanging in the grocery store to fill up with $$ and use at your favorite restaurant later) company had us build circa 2012. The machine made the cards, formatted the 'chip' in the cards and tested it, set it up for its vendor/owner/bank that was issuing it, and then used a custom program (written in France) that required (no lie...) Windows XP Version SP2 in a PC to "burn" the security number(s) into the card. So, the machine could load up 56 cards in a sheet, prep them in 6 seconds, then it spent 5-8 minutes to "program" that sheet of 56 cards (typically 2-5 of them would be 'bad' and had to be cut out of the sheet) with the card numbers, and then the sheet moved to Overlay where the colors you see got burned into the plastic.

Windows XP SP2 in 2012.

When I went to that company in 2022 to fix some other company's screwup on another machine that made those big sheets of credit card blanks, they had 2 people 'tending' that "burner" machine: one had to manually start the [newer, revised] "burner" program each time a sheet arrived because Windows XP could not be reliably notified via ethernet nor any USB protocol after XP had been running for about 4 months, they said. I took a look into the computer and sure enough: it had just 1 program in it (the "burner"), but the entire hard disk was 98% full from Windows caching itself. I had them stop the machine, went in and removed all the old XP caches up to the day before yesterday, and then the machine would run again without that person queuing the computer for every sheet. While I had previously disabled this caching, someone ran the SP3 upgrade to it for the 'newest' French release of the "burner" software, and Windows had re-activated the caching. By XP-SP4 you couldn't turn it off at all.

That's so far beyond ridiculous I can't think of the right words for it. Using the least-secure OS on the planet in a credit-card security machine....

[willbird]

"In a world without fences who needs Gates" LOL.

Bill

[HondaMan]

Have you tried to install the Dell computer's chipset drivers?

The drivers that will be installed with Windows are usually generic drivers to get it to run, not more.

Chipset drivers to get the internal disk- memory- CPU- USB - buses etc to run as designed.

BIOS settings should be correct in a new PC.
The BIOS might need to be upgraded too. It happens that they have bugs.

Graphic drivers for the used graphic board too.

All should be possible to download and install from Dell webpage.
Easier to upgrade today than  25- 30 years ago.
No need of creating a start disk on DOS.....

Last time I upgraded the BIOS I clicked on a file on the Internet that downloaded and probably created a virtual disk it could install from.

It won't boot far enough to do anything like that, Per. All it will do is reboot, constantly, showing the Dell logo and then restarting. If I "catch" it just right I can divert it into the BIOS screens, but that is all it will do.

Dell just sent it back to me: while they had it and contacted me to pay for another SSD, I instead contacted their Service group with the case to 'explain' it to them: since I never was able to use the laptop, it had never performed as the promised used computer I bought from them. Next will be to see if my credit card company can do anything about it: I don't need another non-working laptop here - I think I have 4 of those already, with 8 working ones. Heck, one of the old laptops has 1/3 of my first book in it, when the hard disk suddenly stopped working: it was one of my all-time favorite computers, too. It turns out that the on-mainboard RAM that buffers the disk went bad, and the main board hasn't been available in decades. I guess I just used it to death? It was basically ON 16-20 hours per day for almost 8 years: the poor screen was so dim I had to use an external monitor. Nice computer, magnesium-cased and radiation-protected (I got it to work on nuclear medicine projects, making radioactive capsules for treating goiter and throat cancers from smoking, and it sometimes had to go in where the room was 'hot' for short visits). Wonderful keyboard...

[PeWe]

I ordered a new Lenovo laptop today.
Lenovo LOQ 17i Gen 10  17” (Intel i7)
This thread helped my thoughts about an upgrade.
My old computer is obsolete.

It will be delivered with Windows 11 and additional control of the user called Ai.

I'll install Linux as soon as I have made sure that bios and all drivers are of latest versions.
Dual boot.
Windows as a last resort if something happens.

I think Linux Fedora will work with the Nvidia RTX5070 graphics.
There are a few versions to download.
https://www.linux.org/pages/download/

This funny Youtube channel helped me to decide.  (I searched on Lenovo + Linux)

I had Lenovo in focus after reading about Linux support.
I have used Lenovo at my job since IBM Thinkpads got the name Lenovo.

My old home laptop is a Lenovo Ideapad U330p. Have worked well since 2014. Now too old.

I hope Linux can keep the Ai's  worms out of my computer

Metal foil insulated pocket in my leather jackets where I keep my phone next.
Ai's might find my phone travel way too fast?

[Stev-o]

I ordered a new Lenovo laptop today.

My Lenovo desktop was good for many years, it was just a middle-of-the-road model and inexpensive 9[?] years ago.  It was not worth upgrading it for Win 11 so we bought the Dell [not inexpensive]

[HondaMan]

I have a fondness for Lenovo machines, myself! They are the only ones I've been able to keep alive for more than about 8 years without serious maintenance of some sort or another. However, my very first one had a weird trouble: about 3 weeks after I got it, the screen went blank (as in, totally dark) and I had to plug in an external monitor (at much lower resolution!) just to use it, mighty awkward for using to program PLCs on a factory floor! Happily, Lenovo had a local on-call service tech who came out and discovered the cable between the lower half and the lid (with the display) had been misrouted, and opening-closing the screen made it break several of the conductors. I kept the old cable just because: it has 21 wires through it, each one looks like a human hair, and they are all insulated conductors! I'd guess the wire size at about 60 AWG, if one were to extend the usual wire tables' sizes. The cable was supposed to twist 1/2 turn at most to a flat-open screen, but the misrouting had it kinking on closure, so it didn't last long.

That's still one of my favorite laptops, too. It has no wireless ethernet, only Bluetooth with 256-bit encryption (on purpose: wireless COM function is not allowed when working on certain military production lines, like the XM-25's ammo line that I use[d] if for), just a 'hole' under the keyboard where that module would fit. So, I have to actually plug it into my home modem for Internet: ah, the old days.

[scottly]

When I downloaded Windows 11, it took hours and hours with a DSL speed of 5Mb/sec, without running a browser or doing anything else on the computer. The system locks up every now and then when running Firefox, and requires going into the task manager to end whatever task is hung up. Like Alan said, if you didn't like 10, you won't like 11 either.

Update: I found my HP PC had "only" 4 GB of RAM, which was apparently the cause of the hang ups with all the Windows 11 bloatware. Today I installed two 8 GB memory sticks, which appears to have solved the problems.

[HondaMan]

Oh, boy, Scottly, you said a mouthful! I remember when 4Gb of RAM went empty beyond 1Gb upon boot (Win NT Server 4.0, SP1/2) and I had to install a 3rd-party driver to be able to access it for managing files in a sharing format across 4 or more computers. In that 1Gb of 'active' memory there was a 320k "hole" of unused RAM above the (DOS) RAM's copy of the BIOS (from the bootup) that required a handwritten opcode program loaded to access it: I found that in PC Magazine, IIRC. It was then made available if you needed to have some sort of RAM-resident program, which we tied to the [then unused] F10/11/12 keys on the keyboards, having those call up the memory-resident utilities we'd write in that RAM for company's needs. One example: we had a guy I called "the pornographer" who would stay late in the back of the shop sometimes and log into the server (then few folks were in the building) to download and augment his picture collection, which he kept on CDs (they held 560Mb of pix then) when he had a big enough cache. Whenever he used one of the shop's terminals to access the server, one of my 'watchdogs' would let him see the 'net for 7 minutes if the site's name matched one of the site names in the associated file on the server (captured by me and written there), then cut him off and log him out, as I was always there late, backing up the company's day's work. He'd have to log back in, and often did, then access the Internet via the server (remember those days?) and rush to his site, only to get cut off again in 7 minutes. At one point I logged how many times per night he'd play this game and wrote that mysterious number to a file: he'd do it as much as 40 times before giving up(!). That's dedication...

[PeWe]

Prices of memory and disks (SSD) going sky high thanks to AI servers.
I was late to the party but still happy to find a new Lenovo for a reduced price, (25% off).
I have looked for a 2TB disk to add as a 2nd disk.
The primary  (1TB) will be half when I create 2 of it before installing Linux Fedora for dual boot. Keeping Win 11 just for sure.

Price a month ago was double than  December prices.
Now even higher

[HondaMan]

It seems strange to be talking about terrabyte disk drives (of ANY kind) when I started with 5mB drives that were as big as my desk, and 4k RAM...and it was plenty. The programming cards were a real nuisance, though, if you dropped the stack of them...

[PeWe]

I got a an email yesterday about one SSD I had price watch on at a price site.
- WD_Black SN7100 NVMe 2TB
Back to December price, $204US, $108US less.
I'll use it mainly for storage such as ride photos

The Lenovo's primary disk, 1TB has Win 11. I'll shrink the disk space to maybe half.
Create a partition on the other half and install Linux Fedora.
This OS can hopefully handle the graphics Nvidia RTX 5070.

I have also a price watch on
- Crucial T500 PCIe Gen4 NVMe 2TB
- Samsung 990 EVO plus 2TB

These are good for laptops taking less power, runs cooler.
Disk with no cooler, bulkier size which a laptop does not have.

The RAM and storage has increased.
My first computer cost more early 1995 than this gaming laptop.