Author Topic: 2 cool cylinders  (Read 2341 times)

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Angiey2002

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2 cool cylinders
« on: January 03, 2008, 04:04:37 AM »
Hi Guys
Continuing saga of this bike. I noticed today as it is quite frosty outside when i started the bike 3&4 cylinders were producing steam?? from their exhausts but 1&2 were not. There is pressure coming out of 1&2 exhausts so I am sure they are firing but I can actually grab the downpipes as the are quite cool. Could it be the coil but then if that was the case would it be firing at all on 1&2 cylinders.
Any pointers??
Thanks

Offline azuredesign

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 04:39:54 AM »
Perhaps, make sure you're getting fuel to 1&2. Not sure whether you have fuel inlets for 1/2 & 3/4 but make sure fuel is getting into carbs. Check spark plugs and see if there is a dif beween cylinders, and report back.
Good luck!
Ben

Offline azuredesign

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 04:41:43 AM »
Sorry, you can leave the removed spark plugs in their caps and ground them one at a time against the cylinder casting while using the starter in a dark room to check for spark.

Offline dustyc

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 04:47:37 AM »
1 coil fires 1 and 4, the other fires 2 and 3.  Your 1 and 2 carbs are fed gas by a hose and 3 and 4 are fed by a different tube.  Since the problem is on 1 and 2, I wouldn't think it would be the coil and start by looking at the gas supply to 1 and 2.
1977 CB750

Angiey2002

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 05:10:37 AM »
Thanks guys. I pulled the plugs and they are both sparking. When i put them back in No1 is working now but not no.2. How do I check if no2 is getting fuel?

Angiey2002

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 05:27:38 AM »
I have just undone the float bowl drain screw and fuel came out till the bowl emptied. (Fuel tap off) Turned the fuel tap back on and fuel started coming out again so I can safely say she is getting fuel to No2 carb. What would be my next thing to check?

Offline dustyc

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 05:29:58 AM »
Remove the bowl drain and see if gas comes out.  That's the quick and simple way to see if there is any gas at all.  If you have a float stuck closed, you could tap(gently) on that carb and see if it unsticks it.  Then run some Seafoam through. 

I haven't kept up with the saga, so I don't know the entire history of the bike ie how long it has been sitting.

If it has been a while -6 months to a year, I'd say remove your carbs and clean them.

Another possibility is the plug or boot, so take the spark plug boots off the wire(they screw on) and check for corrosion in the wire and buy new plugs.
1977 CB750

Offline dustyc

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2008, 05:39:15 AM »
If there is corrosion in the wire/boot connection, you can cut a quarter of an inch off the wire and screw it back on.

Try swapping plugs and see if that plug doesn't fire in another cylinder.  That should tell you if it's bad or good.

I'm not sure about this next thing, but I noticed my spark plug caps resistance had drifted.  I measured about a dozen NGK caps and some have 0 resistance and some have gone way up.  I'm not sure how that would effect the running, but I replaced them.
1977 CB750

Offline 754

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2008, 08:22:33 AM »
Sounds a bit like the pilot jets are dirty or clogged  on 2 carbs..does it run ok when warmed up?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 09:14:16 AM »
You really should tell us which bike you have... The devil is in the details.

1st try swapping plugs with a known firing one...like from another cylinder.  Sooted up center insulators can shunt the spark away from jumping the gap.

Fuel quality check.  Jet orifices pass liquids well, solids poorly.  The idle jet is only about 0.016 inch in diameter.  Solids larger than this, block the orifice and stop liquid flow.
Check for tank crud and compromised petcock filter.  Then flush or clean carb orifices.

One coil fires 1&4 simultaneously, the other 2&3.

Cheers,

P.S. Don't go grabbing headers expecting them to be cold.  Some day, they won't be.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline azuredesign

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 10:57:43 AM »
Thanks guys. I pulled the plugs and they are both sparking. When i put them back in No1 is working now but not no.2. How do I check if no2 is getting fuel?
What did the number 2 plug look like when you pulled it. If ithe insulator was all white and chalky and the electrode was clean, that's one indication that there's no gas. If it was dark and wet, no spark. I can't think of anything else it could be fundamentally. What year is the bike?

Angiey2002

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2008, 01:29:17 AM »
Thanks chaps. Sorry, I keep forgetting to put the bike in. CB550K 1997. The plugs are wet and black which suggests that the bike is running rich. When I put the plugs back in I noticed that No.1 started working. Then I pulled the cap off plug 2 when the bike was running to see if the bike would falter which it did, then I put the plug cap back on and No.3 started working. ??? ??? ??? I am just wondering if it was the caps not being on properly which I dont think so as the bike was running ok before and I had not touched the plugs or perhaps I have an intermittent fault! It started ok again today with all four cylinders firing. Fingers crossed.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2008, 02:45:28 AM »
Plugs wet and black are on the verge of being carbon fouled.  The carbon coating on the center electrode insulator can shunt the spark voltage directly to ground and bypass jumping the electrode.  On the way to being totally fouled, they become intermittent.

Pulling the caps off (and then on) while running raises the spark voltage due to increased gap.  This can zap a marginally firing plug into operation again.  If the plugs can be saved, you need to get the engine to operating temp and then get it going good and fast with load on the freeway.  This is your only hope of getting the plugs to a temp that will self clean.
Otherwise, plan on a replacement set of plugs. 
If you you've been running a lot on the choke in humid weather, this can soot up the plugs to the fouling point.  If your plugs get carbon fouled without use of the choke, then you have carb jetting issues.

Cheers,

P.S. A pair of spark plugs eg. 2&3 fire from the same coil.  When the voltage rises enough to jump both spark gaps, current flows from one spark plug through the coil to the other spark plug.  If you disconnect one plug, it is common to lose both cylinders firing because you have disturbed the current flow path.  A shorted plug (fouled) allows the other paired cylinder to fire, but at reduced voltage.  (assumes the stock Kettering type ignition).
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Angiey2002

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 03:42:14 AM »
Thank you Two Tired. What you say makes perfect sense. The bike is not actually what we call over here MOT'd (Inspection to put it on the road) so the bike has only had a short run on private road so does not really get up to operating temp hence the plugs being wet and black. I did notice when I hadNo1. plug ground out on the engine block that the spark seemed to be coming off the side of the electrode and not out of the tip which would probably account for the plug not operating properly. Hope to get it MOT and insured over the next couple of weeks so out on the road for a long run she will go and I'll see how she runs after that. I have just spent the last couple of weeks getting her running right as per previous post (Idling/Running) and she is going 100% better now

Offline mgmuellner

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 07:30:38 AM »
P.S. Don't go grabbing headers expecting them to be cold.  Some day, they won't be.

Amen, skin is awefully tough to get off a pipe once it's caked on.  When I was a kid I had a XR80 & dumped it one day & was knocked out.  Woke up & smelled something that smelled like bacon - looked down & saw the bike laying on my leg cooking it.  That skin never came off the pipe & left a nice scar on my leg too!  Grabbing headers might be good if you're hoping to burn off your finger prints, but pain wise grabbing a spark plug top on a wet day is a more fun way to go.
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newcbguy

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 07:50:07 AM »
long story short if your pipes are cool enough to touch you aren't getting fire. I have one of those dirt bike muffler scars on my leg too  ;D

Offline dustyc

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 08:28:42 AM »
If you're not getting up to speed(they charge around 3000 rpm and up) and doing alot of idling, you need to keep an eye on your battery as well.  If you don't have a full charge, it won't run right.  I ran into that when I was getting mine back on the road.  I'd tinker and run the battery down and wonder why it would suddenly start running bad and stalling. 

I feel the exhaust coming out of the pipes for heat before moving on to touching the pipes.
1977 CB750

Offline my78k

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 08:57:39 AM »
I have a 4 into 1 so cant tell which pipe is firing without doing the grab test...actually it is a back of hand test as I am less likely to clamp down on it...

Dennis

Offline 754

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 09:14:58 AM »
You guys dont really touch hot pipes do you ??

I lick my finger give it a light tap at the bend by the oil filter if its cold there I start moving up..

Easier to grow more spit than a layer of new skin!!..unless you are trying to remove your fingerprints... :o
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 10:11:30 AM »
Testing for heated headers with fingers is routine for me.  And, I have never burned my hands/ finger in the process.  Just a little knowledge about the human body reporting apparatus makes it quite safe.
You just need to understand how the body senses heat.   The heat sense is a delayed report or an after-the-fact condition.

example:  You can pass your fingers through open flame safely. They key is doing it with a short time frame(s).  Your finger will feel hot after your have passed it through the flame.  If you want a general hot feeling, repeat the action in short interval exposures.  Your blood circulation is also a cooling system that will cool localized heated body parts and distribute that heat throughout the body.  However, it has a limited heat distribution rate.  This capacity must not be exceeded.

Head pipes can be monitored in a like manner.  Always assume they are as hot as flame.  Flash touch the pipe with very very short contact times.  If they are hot, your fingers will feel warm after you have released the pipe. DON'T wait to feel the heat before removal!  You can repeat the flash touch process with increasing frequency until your hand "averages" the heating effect that was felt.  Each pipe can be tested with the same going-in assumption. "It's far too hot to hold until it is proven cold."  If you can keep time tapping in beat to music.  You then compare relative tapping/contact time and the heat felt on each pipe to the other pipes.  If the engine is running, or trying to run, at least one pipe is hot/warm. 

The only danger is false assumptions.  Just because one pipe is proven cold, does NOT mean the next one can be grabbed with the same contact duration!

I don't appreciate the saliva approach for two reasons.  One is steam, which by definition is 212 degrees F or higher, has a physical mass of it's own which remains in contact with the skin after removal from the heat source.  This will blister skin faster than the application of dry heat which only has the mass of surrounding air that the body can more readily distribute/dissipate.
The second reason is Saliva residue and the suspended skin oils that can stain/mark chrome surfaces, which you later have to polish off.

I only use dry hands/fingers on chrome head pipes, since I'm too lazy to clean bikes with high frequency.  But, someday, I'm going to spring for one of those IR probes, primarily because I'm a gadget/tool nut.  Though I doubt I'll have it with me while doing a troubleshoot far away from my garage.  Most likely I WILL have my hands and internal heat sensors with me, though, and enough brains/skill to employ them without self injury.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline crazypj

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2008, 10:19:20 AM »
Have you checked carb sync? It could be firing on all four but the carbs need setting up
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Offline 754

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2008, 10:23:34 AM »
I havent seen the steam, but the added benefit is you can HEAR it!!

Nothing like having an Ultra clean bike that is running on 2 cylinders though!!

Hardest one I diagnosed was firing part of the time so pipes were warm.. but not as warm as the others.. turned out to be a mechanical/electric problem that would stump most anyone.. they had been trying for half a day already..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Angiey2002

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Re: 2 cool cylinders
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D When I said grab the heads I think I should have said "tentatively touch the heads very fast, flick if you like " to see if they were hot. Just got a steam burn off my kettle to realise coincidentally that burning any skin is not pleasant.