Author Topic: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...  (Read 13911 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline brandon

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2008, 11:58:41 PM »
That is a cool setup there... a bit pricey though.

I'm curious as to how I can modify parts that are readily available to get a projector to fit somewhere inside the headlight assembly, even if this means having part of the projector sticking out the back...which more than likely will happen. Also modification to the bucket sounds inevitable and that is fine with me.

On ebay, I can get any 7" H4 projector headlight set for about $20.00 that have glass projectors and somehow try and implement the projector into the headlight housing...

Thoughts?

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,985
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2008, 10:17:55 AM »
Keep one thing in mind, guys: an H4 bulb is 55w/60w (sometimes 55w/65w). This means that regardless of how you derive the power to light it, it will require 55w/60w. Adding HID does not change this wattage, and HID does not make extra power: rather, it uses MORE power to create the hi-frequency bulb power. Be careful what you pick out for this project!


Hondaman-
If reading is believing (I have no first hand experience) a true HID (not those H4 bulbs that offer "HID like lighting") setup will make more light with less power.  As mentioned the (separate) ballasts are typically designed to draw 35watts of power and the bulb produces a very potent light.  The HIDs with high and low beam either use a solenoid to physically move the light source to a different position or they seem to use a second light source in a different position.  The current draw and light output doesn't change.  Also, heat output is supposedly not a concern.  Is this too good to be true?  Don't know.  In short, the apparent attraction of a HID conversion is dramatically improved lighting with a current draw similar to stock. . . . If you are going to spend the time to make a lighting kit for the amperaged impaired 4s (750s with a charging system in a good state of tune, seem to be OK with higher draw halogen headlights although a relay might be wise to protect the wiring / switches) you might want to investigate this technology a bit.  It seems to be the way that automotive lighting is heading.  It also might be a load of BS ;D

In my search for adaptable HID so far, I've found 100 watt through 350 watt HID units. (!) This would be a big overload on almost all bikes. The basic HV HID system uses a circuit module with an oscillator that drives a transformer to step the voltage up to HID discharge ranges, Some of those (notably the BMW ones) run at 330 volts at the bulb, others in the 100 volt range. Compared to 300+ watts of halogen power, the bulbs run cooler, which is attractive, but the voltage (Ouch, my finger!) might be a concern for the ininitiated.

So, the search continues...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2008, 03:32:28 PM »
Hondaman-  I guess I really don't get the issue that you are coming up with? I'm no EE so maybe i just don't understand. . . . Just about every HID system that I have seen for sale uses a 35watt ballast.  This ballast increases the voltage to maintain the arc between the two electrodes on the light bulb but it is still rated at 35 watts.  The "starter" or "ignitor" (typcially a separate piece) gets things going initially and typically require a momentary healthy dose of amperage (like 18-20amps) to get started.  The HID setups wiring harness should take care of this with it own dedicated voltage supply wire. Once the arc is created maintaining draws about 3 amps or so.  How does this outmatch most motorcycles??. . . . For instance the HID motorcycle specific headlight pictured above (JW Speaker) uses a 35 watt ballast.  At initial startup it draws a whopping 20amps but then settles into a steady state of 3.2 amps and its wiring harness is designed to supply the necessary amperage with it own fused voltage supply from the battery.  Turns out this particular setup actually uses a halogen bulb for high beam and runs both the HID and halogen at the same time when high beams are on.  I don't know what the total draw is in this particular case is  and it may indeed outstrip the SOHC alternators capabilities.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 05:19:36 AM by eurban »

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,985
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2008, 08:38:01 PM »
Hondaman-  I guess I really don't get the issue that you are coming up with? I'm no EE so maybe i just don't understand. . . . Just about every HID system that I have seen for sale uses a 35watt ballast.  This ballast increases the voltage to maintain the arc between the two electrodes on the light bulb but it is still rated at 35 watts.  The starter or ignitors get things going initially and typically require a momentary healthy dose of amperage (like 18-20amps) to get started.  The HID setups wiring harness should take care of this with it own dedicated voltage supply wire. Once the arc is created maintaining draws about 3 amps or so.  How does this outmatch most motorcycles??. . . . For instance the HID motorcycle specific headlight pictured above (JW Speaker) uses a 35 watt ballast.  At initial startup it draws a whopping 20amps but then settles into a steady state of 3.2 amps and its wiring harness is designed to supply the necessary amperage with it own fused voltage supply from the battery.  Turns out this particular setup actually uses a halogen bulb for high beam and runs both the HID and halogen at the same time when high beams are on.  I don't know what the total draw is in this particular case is  and it may indeed outstrip the SOHC alternators capabilities.

Can I see some of those systems you are seeing? (Like a link or something?). Numbers like that could become usable on the old CBs. All of the ones I have seen so far are for luxury cars or off road use, just too much for bikes in general.

There would have to be some provision for the startup, like a time delay storage charge unit to start the arc. I can probably engineer up something like that.

Possibilities?  ::)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com


Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2008, 05:21:17 AM »

Offline skiri251

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2008, 12:36:56 PM »
I'll also probably do this auction through ebay on this kit here, which is a Bi-Xenon bulb. The dude has mega good feedback and everyone seems to be pretty stoked on the product sold, his shipping is just a PITA  :P : http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BI-XENON-HID-CONVERSION-KIT-H4-3-For-Motorcycle-Bike_W0QQitemZ290199909748QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290199909748

That's what I installed on my XS750. I was trying to reduce alternator load and increase day time visibility.
Controller and ballast are a bit bulky so you need to think a bit especially if it's a naked bike.
The seller seems to be good. Very quick delivery from Hong Kong.

I haven't done any comparison neither for the brightness or actual amparage reduction.
My CB750K5 has standard H4 halogen so maybe I will do some highly scientific experiment (comapre the two with my eye balls side by side. LOL)
I read in XS forum that this HID makes a huge difference at night but I don't do much night riding..
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 12:50:19 PM by skiri251 »

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,985
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2008, 07:39:09 PM »

Can I see some of those systems you are seeing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320177740181&rd=1

Ah, I see...the Monster Ballast that ate my bike!
Hmm...now I must find a xenon bulb...some shuteye...a shot of bourbon...and those old starter transformers I have a box of, around here somewhere. It should be no problem to create a tiny, high-power density, metal-cased (and heatsinked) power unit for an H3 bulb. It should then be possible to start the H3 size bulb with a slow-start (3 seconds), momentary 8 amp draw. The Little Fours should be able to handle that much. Running current should be about the same as HI beam, then.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline brandon

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2008, 12:22:24 AM »

Ah, I see...the Monster Ballast that ate my bike!
Hmm...now I must find a xenon bulb...some shuteye...a shot of bourbon...and those old starter transformers I have a box of, around here somewhere. It should be no problem to create a tiny, high-power density, metal-cased (and heatsinked) power unit for an H3 bulb. It should then be possible to start the H3 size bulb with a slow-start (3 seconds), momentary 8 amp draw. The Little Fours should be able to handle that much. Running current should be about the same as HI beam, then.

Don't forget that if you're going to make something up, shouldn't it be waterproof? Also, shouldn't it be for an H4 bulb? That expensive kit that is $400.00 and the Candle Power sealed headlamp are both H4. Also do you feel this little electric gismo you are going to create is necessary knowing that the H.I.D ballast only draws 35watts max?

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,985
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2008, 07:01:31 PM »
In conventional HID systems, the "ballast" is an electronic circuit that oscillates at some given frequency to drive a transformer, which generates the AC high-voltage that goes to the bulb. The term "ballast" is really a misnomer, as it's not like the flourescent light ballast that you see everywhere. I think it gets called that because no one knows what they really are!

Waterproof: sure. It will be in a case like my ignitions. And, the circuit will be able to drive lamps up to 70 watts. The wattage used by the whole unit is about 20% to 30% more than the bulb alone, in most cases. The startup current in car-type units is attributable to low capacitance and lack of a startup circuit: typical, cheap, automotive stuff. This bike version will require a bit more finess.   ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline fastbroshi

  • Puppet
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,645
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2008, 07:47:55 PM »
Hmmm very interesting, any updates on this?  If I can't rewind my stator, this looks like a good option if it works.
Just call me Timmaaaaay!!!

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,985
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2008, 05:09:24 AM »
This is beginning to resemble a next--winter project, since I've been so buried in Ignitions and the Hondaman Special. I'll get it there, just 'cuz I want one for mine...  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,700
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2008, 08:52:55 AM »
There is no such thing as an H4 HID bulb. The H4 lamp is a "quartz halogen" dual filament bulb, period.
Some automotive HID headlamp replacement bulbs can be modified to fit into an H4 reflector. The conversion kits you see are using this method to jam an HID lamp in an H4 reflector and provide or modify a ballast to suit. Since the H4 is a dual (hi/lo) beam system you either get one beam HID and one beam still filament, or there's a mechanism to move the bulb a bit changing the focus of the lamp.
The lamps in both H4 and HID headlights are an integral part of the optical system. Swapping them results in a half-assed disaster. Some light comes out, sure. The road may be well lit with an HID lamp in an H4 reflector.
Take a look at an H4 bulb. The "low beam" filament has a metal shield/tiny reflector on one side, this blocks the light that would blind oncoming cars. The HID lamp does not have this shield. Obviously this means that the HID bulb in an H4 reflector will be frikking bright in the eyes on oncoming vehicles... this is the problem.
The DOT regulations are a bit arbitrary in lots of ways, they generally say that non-original safety related equipment is not allowed. Many systems are DOT certified on a vehicle, not just the headlights. Some things, like brake parts, can be certified (it's actually up to a manufacturer to comply with regulations and say a part is certified - then either the DOT or another agency can test it and find it non-compliant BUT the DOT does no testing to certify products for sale) as compliant for certain vehicles. Some things just can not ever be DOT certified compliant... like H4 HID bulbs: the name is itself a contradiction since an H4 lamp must have a tungsten-halogen filament type bulb. This is not just semantic nonsense, the H4 filament size, position relative to the base flange, and shading reflector are all specified within close tolerances. The reflector and lens must take the light from an H4 bulb and focus it to pretty tight luminance and directivity specifications.
There are specifications for the light pattern and brightness minimums and maximums for vehicle headlights in general, they have to put out over a minimum light on the road and shoulders and under a maximum light level in the "glare zone". Someone might be able to design an HID bulb that would meet these specs in an H4 reflector... but this would cost a bunch of $$$ to design and more $$$ to produce... and the bulb would still be impossible to certify because (sorry to repeat) an H4 headlight can only have an H4 tungsten-halogen filament type bulb by definition and by DOT standard. Such a bulb would be, in my opinion, entirely OK to use on my bike just like I have used non-DOT certified braided brake lines because I know they're stronger and safer than the rubber OEM DOT lines and pose no safety problem. But no lamp manufacturer is going to make a "proper" H4 HID lamp because they will necessarily be uncertifiable and can be prohibited from US sale at the whim of the DOT with probably a large fine assessed as well.
Putting a complete DOT legal automotive HID projector headlight unit in a bike will probably still contravene some DOT regulations, but it would - IMO - be OK, as the light pattern would have to be within the standards. I haven't seen HID dual beam units yet but maybe some cars have them... I haven't been looking unto what's on cars I can't afford but there are pretty basic problems designing a projector type lamp with two beam patterns, and putting a secong HID lamp in for high beam is quite costly for the benefit.
The ballast provides high voltage square wave AC with current limiting. There has to be a high voltage ignition system as well. These usually work by switching on the AC power, the lamp will not turn on as the breakdown voltage across the lamp electrodes is well over the voltage supplied. With no current the AC voltage goes abnormally high, and the starting supply is triggered by this high voltage. It provides a DC pulse or a very high AC voltage that sparks across the lamp electrodes. The spark flash is from a small path between the electrodes becoming an plasma - ionized gas that conducts electricity. The AC square wave voltage is plenty high enough to flow through this plasma and it does so, at a much higher current but much lower voltage than the starting voltage. At the lamp's normal operating current the AC supply voltage goes way down. The starting circuit shuts down at this lower voltage. The starters all work the same basic way, the lamp power circuit goes through the secondary coil of what's basically a Tesla coil. The primary is powered either with a very fast switching DC pulse or a traditional RF AC Tesla primary voltage. A simple bypass capacitor shunts the high secondary voltage and protects the power supply - a low value but high voltage capacitor is high impedance at the main switching frequency but is quite low impedance at RF frequencies or for the very fast transient of a DC ignitor. There is a design balance between the switching speed of the main supply and the shunting effect needed to bypass the starting supply.
You need a square wave supple because the lamp is not made for DC, there are DC xenon lamps but these aren't used in automotive lamps and tend to be higher power (500W - 30kW). If a sine wave AC supply was tried the arc would extinguish for too long and you would have to restart it with HV again, the square wave supply does "shut off" the lamp at zero crossings but the gas stays ionized long enough that it will still conduct power when voltage returns. Some lamps like the sodium streetlamps will work on normal 60Hz AC because the gas is chosen for its long lasting ionization - but as far as I know there aren't any true white light lamps possible with these gases.
Oh man... this has become quite a rant. Bye for now!

Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: H.I.D. Front Headlight - Questions...
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2008, 09:15:41 AM »
Did a bit more research . . . .Looks like there are a few companies that make a dedicated HID 7" round motorcycle headlight assemblies.  Attached is a Pic from a company called J.W. Speaker.  This (JW Speaker model 8100) setup is DOT legal and is apparently designed to project the light in the proper manner.  Their kit price is quite steep at around $400 but it is complete, meaning that it comes with the 7" round housing, high and low bulbs and the ballast, harness and ignitors.  It seems to be designed with the police industry (Harley) in mind and looks like it should fit a standard 7" headlight bucket and trim assembly.  How much room would be left over for wire connections is unknown.  So if you really have a bee up your butt to install HID on a SOHC  (I guess 400f owners with the smaller housings are SOL) and want something that is legal and seemingly kind to oncoming drivers, then here you go. . . . Looks pretty damn cool too!

Bodi, here's a complete unit that I showed earlier that is specifically made for motorcycles.  Uses HID for the low beam and combines this with a conventional bulb for high beam duties. DOT approved.  Seems to be primarily designed for the Harley cop bike market.  Big $ . . .
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 10:03:07 AM by eurban »