Author Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things (Read 166654 times)

750essess · « **Reply #375 on:** January 30, 2011, 10:28:06 am »

Well the cbr 1000 pump flowed too much. It heated up the fuel. I took the ltr pump out of the housing and it's a little smaller so I'm hoping it flows a little less. I haven't seen any documentation on the flow rate. (edit) just googled the flow rate it's a kehein type s pump and flows 50 liters per hour. Injectors are 280cc per min times four equals 67.2 liters per hour at 85 percent duty. I will have to wait until it's running again to confirm but iirc I was no where near 85 duty cycle. So it's looking like it's just about right.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #376 on:** January 30, 2011, 11:59:29 am »

awesome. i will have to dig deeper into this

Pinhead · « **Reply #377 on:** January 30, 2011, 04:32:06 pm »

Just one question... Other than the added load on the electrical system, what do you see as a disadvantage of hearing your fuel? I've done a lot of experiments and with FI, generally the hotter the fuel, the more efficient the combustion. You pick up power and mileage...

750essess · « **Reply #378 on:** January 31, 2011, 03:53:25 am »

It was actually boiling at times int the tank. Fumes where the coming out the flush mount cap I'm using and ruined the paint around it. U can also get vapor lock I've read but haven't experienced that. I did also see pump cavatation sometimes. The temp of the fuel does affect fuel ratio. Some factory fuel pressure sensors such as the ones used on fords have a temp sensor built in also to allow the ecu to compensate. The microsquirt currently doesn't have this feature so I want the fuel temp as stable as possible.

MasterChief750 · « **Reply #379 on:** January 31, 2011, 03:01:41 pm »

would a returnless system ststem fix your boiling fuel issue, never seen it on a bike but seen plenty on cars

23tbucket · « **Reply #380 on:** January 31, 2011, 03:56:52 pm »

If it is at all possible, try to use the Suzuki fuel pump. It is an in-tank...has built-in regulator....one line to the fuel rail...maintains a rock solid 43 psi...very quiet....low amps. I haven't noticed any heating of the gas yet.
The first bike (DOHC750) I fuel injected I used an external Walbro. It draws high amps and is very noisy. It took a lot of extra work to fit in the regulator and return lines etc.
The SOHC750 I am tuning right now uses a stock Suzuki pump in a separate 1 gallon tank. The main tank gravity feeds into the second tank. The SOHC of mine is an automatic so I had the luxury of making the secondary tank look like it could have been an oil tank. I don't know how you could work around making a second small tank and hiding it somewhere on your bike? Perhaps weld an extension to the bottom of your real gas tank to fit in the Suzuki pump? These pumps are perfect if you can fit them in somehow.

Here is one I'm getting ready for a DOHC900 fuely:

Good luck; Clifford

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #381 on:** January 31, 2011, 04:57:40 pm »

I will most likely use an internal pump once i get the thing up and running. I will be modifying or making a new tank for the bike in the future at which point it will get an internal pump. but for now, an external will be necessary as i do not want to do modifications to the tank at this time. and i have no space to add a secondary tank.

masterchief, I am looking into doing a return-less fuel system as it will be easily adapted without much modification to the tank. just an additional bung that will need to be installed into the tank.

750essess · « **Reply #382 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:29:19 am »

I am setting it up for returnless now, not finished yet. I mentioned it a while back in this thread. I would love to do an in tank or a seperate tank for the pump but just no room with a stock appearing bike. It does seem like I have had every possible glitch with this thin lol.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #383 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:09:52 pm »

750essess and 23tbucket,

What CHT sensors are you guys using? I picked up an air-cooled VW CHT but just found out that one wire sensors are not a good thing to use as they are "noisy"...

I am still looking into this sensor that I have to see if i can make it work or not. I have a GM 2 wire CLT sensor as well but i have heard that they do not read all that accurately on air-cooled motors.

what are you guys using?

750essess · « **Reply #384 on:** February 04, 2011, 05:06:24 am »

I am using the one wire vw sensor. It works fine.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #385 on:** February 04, 2011, 06:06:09 am »

so you are not having any problems with noise or anything with the VW CHT? did you just not hook the sensor ground up to it and are letting it ground through the motor? if you dont mind me asking, where did you install the CHT? i was thinking the top fin between cylinders 2 and 3...

Do you have the sensor tables for that VW single wire sensor?

Right now I am using:

14F - 9300 Ohm
68F - 5000 Ohm
176F - 330 Ohm

with a resistor bias of about 2490 Ohm

The readings that I am getting from the CHT sensor and the IAT sensor seem to be close but are not proper. the IAT should be warming up faster than the CHT sensor as i heat the garage up, but it is working inversely... the CHT sensor is ramping up faster than the IAT sensor.

750essess · « **Reply #386 on:** February 04, 2011, 05:50:35 pm »

Yes no ground except through the motor. I am using the built in Saab (bosch) calibration in tuner studio. The output is a little noisy but can be smoothed out using the lag factor settings under the Basic Set up/General-Lags menu. The lower the number the more smoothing but slower response. The cht reading is'nt critical it can be off and you just set your warm up tables accordingly. The iat on the other hand , needs to be fairly accurate, because it is used in the fueling equation. But if your still off there is a table to adjust the air temp correction. I installed the sensor in the cylinder 3 intake valve adjustment cap. Not many places to install one on this motor and after much trial and error this has worked the best. Your different response between sensors may be because of the difference in mass. The gm iat sensor is much larger than the vw allowing the vw to warm up faster.

23tbucket · « **Reply #387 on:** February 04, 2011, 08:06:10 pm »

Midnight: I have a GM coolant sensor mounted low and between the center cylinders as shown earlier. It is dead nuts accurate......but, it does take a long time at idle before it hits the 160 temp to stop the warm-up enrichment. But like 750essess says, you can program the warm-up part any where you want. As you mentioned, I may have a problem with things cooling down too much, when out on the road, where I have my sensor placed? The GM sensor doesn't need to be in a liquid.
I am also using a GM IAT sensor. I agree with 750essess....The IAT sensor is very much more important than a CT sensor. The CT is only used during starting. The IAT is used to help with the calculating of the air density. Try to mount the IAT sensor someplace where it won't pick-up engine heat. I think most put it in the air box or inside a pod, if that is what you are using?
I think with the one wire sensor, you have to be extra careful with the grounding. A two wire would be better if they are available, 'cause you can ground back to the same spot as all the other sensors.

No need to tell you...just a reminder...grounds are every bit as important as "the power to." More so with computers!!!

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #388 on:** February 04, 2011, 08:19:49 pm »

thanks guys....

i will keep an eye on the CHT sensor. I am using a GM open Element IAT sensor with the GM IAT sensor tables that are built into tunerstudio.

I am pretty sure that my IAT sensor is pretty much spot on... I turned on the bike and then turned on my kerosene heater in the garage and watched the temps climb in real time.

I got my fuel rail in today so hopefully on monday i can get it and my throttle bodies down to the guy that is going to drill the fuel rail for me. once that happens, Its down to O2 and Fuel supply...

Getting closer

750essess · « **Reply #389 on:** February 09, 2011, 08:14:35 am »

Got the returnless system with ltr pump working last weekend. Working perfectly so far just revving in garage. Too cold to test on the street. Max duty cycle was 25% holding wide open for a few seconds. Ran at operating temps for 15 min and no fuel heating!

Syscrush · « **Reply #390 on:** February 09, 2011, 08:37:59 am »

Beautiful.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #391 on:** February 09, 2011, 10:15:21 am »

awesome 750essess... thanks for reporting that information. Did you possible measure the current draw on the system with that LTR pump?

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #392 on:** February 09, 2011, 11:03:25 am »

also, do you have a diagram of the fuel system hook ups? it looks like there are a few lines on the LTR pump that i am uncertain about.

750essess · « **Reply #393 on:** February 09, 2011, 01:56:21 pm »

I measured 1.0 to 1.2 amps going into the fuel pump controller (all the power for the pump goes through it)!! Remember this on a returnless system, for a normal system it will draw more. There are 3 fuel lines on the ltr pump. One on bottom is feed, one with quick release fitting is pressure and the other one on top is a vent return. This vent is there because it came off of atv that gets bounced around alot more than a street bike. It basically keeps fuel in the pump housing. I just turned on the fuel until fuel came out and capped it off. If you happen to get a pump with no wire connector, like I did, the connector is the same as a suzuki injector.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #394 on:** February 09, 2011, 04:01:53 pm »

thanks for that information 750. I am gonna order one up on friday

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #395 on:** February 13, 2011, 08:30:05 pm »

ordered my LTR450 pump tonight... getting closer

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #396 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:31:24 pm »

anyone know how to test an LTR450 pump without hooking it up to a fuel system?

Syscrush · « **Reply #397 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:37:46 am »

Quote from: midnight08 on February 17, 2011, 02:31:24 pm

anyone know how to test an LTR450 pump without hooking it up to a fuel system?

I would think that for a bench test you could easily test that it pumps fuel with 2 buckets and a battery - but to determine if it can sustain the sufficient flow at the required pressure you'd need at least the FPR plumbed in, too.

This might be helpful: LTR450 manual online.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #398 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:05:39 am »

thats what i was thinking SYS.... i might have to mock up a "mock fuel system"

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #399 on:** February 18, 2011, 06:21:23 am »

Hey 750essess....

What did you do for the Suzuki fuel line fittings? I am going to need to figure out how to go from the suzuki fuel line quick disconnects to a -6 AN fitting for the high pressure side...

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Author Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things (Read 166654 times)