Topic: front brake diagnosing

[MauiK3]

+1 Moving or floating calipers need everything to be smooth and lubed or they jam up. Pivot arms on the SOHC bikes are often neglected.

[Don R]

  Thanks Mark, I have Magura levers, the brake side has a little free-play, no rubber and a missing lock washer. The nut is in place, but the sheet metal cover is loose. I'll adjust those items first.
  The hoses are two pretty new ones from the M/C direct to the dual calipers with the brake light switch in the banjo bolt. I can move both calipers side to side easily once the pistons are pushed back in.

[Deltarider]

[...]Pivot arms on the SOHC bikes are often neglected.

There are two approaches to this. Here's the one for someone like me who does maintenance himself. As long I do not diagnose anything wrong and the pivot swings as new, I don't have to do anything. When a problem would occur, the parts involved are quickly enough to access.
Then there's the possible (!) Honda dealer's approach. When a customer, who does no maintenance himself, shows up for service and the mechanic has to clean the caliper, which ofcourse will be on the bill, that mechanic is maybe inclined to do also the pivot pin, even where there's no issue. Why?
Well, it's obvious. In the possible event the customer's bike will develop an issue with the front brake's pivot pin soon thereafter, he could return to the dealer and say: hey, you have serviced the front brake (showing the bill), you must have done something wrong.
That dealer doesn't want such a discussion with a noob and therefore to shield himself does all possible maintenance of that brake on forehand, even when there's no problem with the pivot pin. See? It's to avoid his reputation being damaged. Not all dealers opt for this, but some do.
So, if you your self are able to test the pivot pin and don't see a problem, leave it alone! That is what I've done for the last 46 years.
If you don't know how to test, take your bike to a workshop.

[BenelliSEI]

+1 Moving or floating calipers need everything to be smooth and lubed or they jam up. Pivot arms on the SOHC bikes are often neglected.

Total agreement. If you have the caliper off and apart a few extra minutes to remove the pivot is all it takes. Nothing could be simpler. Clean it, lubricate and do it. That’s the job done right.

[Deltarider]

+1 Moving or floating calipers need everything to be smooth and lubed or they jam up. Pivot arms on the SOHC bikes are often neglected.

Total agreement. If you have the caliper off and apart a few extra minutes to remove the pivot is all it takes. Nothing could be simpler. Clean it, lubricate and do it. That’s the job done right.

No, it isn't. Most dealers here didn't. For a reason. If it is not needed, why add cost for the customer? The thing is that in this forum, many have itchy hands. They can make themselves useful in the household, mow the lawn, whatever, instead of playing the mechanic.

[PeWe]

Service the caliper can be done when wheel is off for a new tire.
My K6 left caliper mount need a shim.
Grease where needed at the same time. The o-ring must be good too.

[BenelliSEI]

+1 Moving or floating calipers need everything to be smooth and lubed or they jam up. Pivot arms on the SOHC bikes are often neglected.

Total agreement. If you have the caliper off and apart a few extra minutes to remove the pivot is all it takes. Nothing could be simpler. Clean it, lubricate and do it. That’s the job done right.

No, it isn't. Most dealers here didn't. For a reason. If it is not needed, why add cost for the customer? The thing is that in this forum, many have itchy hands. They can make themselves useful in the household, mow the lawn, whatever, instead of playing the mechanic.

Appreciate your opinion. I’m not interested in what a dealer does nor do I incur any extra costs. I choose to do a complete and thorough job, simply for the pleasure of it.

[bryanj]

Delta, the number of that type of Honda brake i failed at MOT test because the pin was siezed and the brake dragged shows that idea false

[Don R]

  What do you guys do when the bracket is so loose it rattles on bumps? The Sandcast and Diecast do that. I considered packing them with brake grease, it's really thick and could dampen the bouncing but I wouldn't want to induce caliper drag either. Wheel bearing grease?
 The other choice might be a thin washer in the gap, someone mentioned using cut down feeler gauges once, mine have a too small hole in the bolt end.

[bryanj]

Somewhere there is a service bulletin or service letter on just that subject, unfortunately all my books are packed away at the moment so i cant get to them, maybe Hondaman remembers

[newday777]

Don
I think there were thin shims to fit in to tighten the space at some point. So making shims from feeler gauges should be fine.

[willbird]

Mcmaster has pre made shims depending on whether ID/OD needed are avail.

8mmID and 14mmOD for example in most thicknesses are avail .2mm to 1mm range and about $9 for (25) they have 1/10 mm too but they come 25 to a pack and the total price is a bit more. Tool and die guys have a bench machine that has a rotating selection of punches and dies and they could knock you out a handfull in a few minutes. I seem to recall my K3 having a thrust washer already in that assembly ?? I took it all apart and had it vapor blasted.

Bill

[BenelliSEI]

Add an extra “0” ring at the top of the shaft. It’s usually enough to stop the rattle.

[PeWe]

The bulletin about shim
I ordered different thicknesses from a bearing shop.

[Deltarider]

Delta, the number of that type of Honda brake i failed at MOT test because the pin was siezed and the brake dragged shows that idea false

This is the first time you bring this up. Always eager to learn, I'd like to have a look at those statistics. In the various riders reports in my archives, both CB500 and CB550, owners were asked to list all repairs they had. As far as the swivel pin: zero.
Yesterday I consulted the Honda Shop Manuals CB350F, CB500-550, CB750. Maybe I have overlooked, but I haven't found anything on servicing the swivel pin, let alone that they mention the type of grease. Nor is there anything on it in the service interval scedules in the Owner's Manuals.
Now the above is not enough. Mechanics on the floor may well have seen seized pins.
If you consult the parts lists thoroughly, you will see the swivel pin has been modified. My model - the CB500K2 GENERAL EXPORT and 126 other models have that modified pin. UK never imported the K2 and so may have more of the older pins.
Then there's me: I don't know what the PO has encountered in the first 33.000 kms, but sofar I didn't have to do any service in nearly a 110.000km as far as the pin. Do I pay attention to it? Yes I do, every time the front wheel is out, it's my habit to check the pin's movement, in less than five seconds... It still swings as new and so, the two O-rings, I once have bought, are still in their plastic bag.
In all those years I have been in this forum, I've read so many things that I never do, that I have the suspicion that people long for jobs to do, no matter what. And experts are more than willing to demonstrate their expertise. All in all I have seen so many issues presented here, that one wonders: how in the world has Honda managed to sell so many bikes?!
I'm sorry as long as I have not seen a SB on forsaid pin, my motto remains: don't fix what ain't broken.

[newday777]

Delta always refers to his bike that he has kept riding. That is great for him and his bike.
But, He doesn't take into consideration the multitude of bikes that have been left to sit outside and wither away or that have been left in damp long term storage and the damage results.

[PeWe]

Delta always refers to his bike that he has kept riding. That is great for him and his bike.
But, He doesn't take into consideration the multitude of bikes that have been left to sit outside and wither away or that have been left in damp long term storage and the damage results.

.... plus owners that clean everything with degreaser.
High pressure wash was available at gas stations washing facilities in the early 80's. Probably earlier too.
Before all house owners got one in the 90's and later on.

Minimum is to service the front brake caliper holder when wheel is off. Like a tire change. Or when needed.

[ofreen]

I'm sorry as long as I have not seen a SB on forsaid pin, my motto remains: don't fix what ain't broken.

Being basically lazy, that is my philosophy too.  I've had the 750 for coming up on 49 years and 171,000 miles and I've cleaned and lubed that pin maybe twice.  So not exactly a maintenance intensive item.  The bike got ridden in the rain a lot when I was commuting on it and both times it needed to be done as the pin was dry and a little cruddy.  Hell, maybe I should do it again, can't exactly remember when the last time was.

[bryanj]

If i listed every problem i saw in the workshop before the topic came up it would be so long nobody would attempt to read it.
Honda used minimal grease on that pin and corrosion between steel and ally is well known.

Perhaps the UK MOT is stricter than elswhere, i dont know i work in UK

[Deltarider]

Delta always refers to his bike that he has kept riding. That is great for him and his bike.
But, He doesn't take into consideration the multitude of bikes that have been left to sit outside and wither away or that have been left in damp long term storage and the damage results.

Newday, with all due respect, don't you think it would have been reported in the forsaid riders reports. Mind you: total distance covered by the CB500/550 owners that have responded in these reports, was 40 times around the globe! Reported issues with pivot pins: none.
Here's the thing that annoys me already for a long time: if you are keen to profile yourself as an expert in a forum like this, best is to sum up as much issues you can thnk of. You will impress the members most, because you always seem to know an extra. I don't need to profile myself. To check the assembly swings freely is dead easy with the front wheel out. If I breath hard against mine, it already moves. How about that, after 46 years of ownership and having traveled all over Europe? When it swings sooo easy, why should I take things apart?! It's all down to common sense. Next time the wheel is out, I'll see if I can shoot a 5 seconds video.

[bryanj]

Most people who look after their own bikes do not report what they consider a normal service item EVEN WHEN NOT IN THE SCHEDULE.
Newer owners are finding the problems that the older riders have been dealing with for years

[BenelliSEI]

Bryan…… Speaking of “Things that annoys me for a really long time”, I suggest you don’t bother to respond.

[bryanj]

Cant help it mate, there are only a handfull of people who do it for me and only 1 on the forum(s)!!

[MauiK3]

I sometimes hear a bit of caliper rattle, not enough to warrant attention yet.
I admit I’m a “as long as I’m here” kind of guy, I prefer to not go back too soon. It is sort of based on years of facility (and equipment) maintenance. If I know something easy and affordable (sometimes not very affordable) is well beyond 50% of its life, and not easy to get back to, I have a tough time passing it by. I imagine I have replaced some serviceable parts just because I was there. It’s a personal thing of course, gives me confidence I’m not setting myself up for too much rework.

[BenelliSEI]

I sometimes hear a bit of caliper rattle, not enough to warrant attention yet.
I admit I’m a “as long as I’m here” kind of guy, I prefer to not go back too soon. It is sort of based on years of facility (and equipment) maintenance. If I know something easy and affordable (sometimes not very affordable) is well beyond 50% of its life, and not easy to get back to, I have a tough time passing it by. I imagine I have replaced some serviceable parts just because I was there. It’s a personal thing of course, gives me confidence I’m not setting myself up for too much rework.

Well stated. Total agreement.