Topic: Fake parts from Asia?

[Patrick]

A few years ago I had to rebuild the engine on an old Mercedes 230C. The car was 27-years-old at the time. One of the cool things I discovered about Mercedes then was that the factory will supply any part from any Mercedes ever made. I doubt they keep an inventory. I figure they have them made as needed as it took several weeks for some of the parts I ordered to arrive.

Mercedes parts are expensive ($129 for a head gasket alone, and this was five years ago) but there is reassurance in knowing that all the parts I had to buy are Mercedes quality. The car is still running and I haven't had to replace any of the parts I put on.

Honda is a big company. They could do that too.

Patrick

[754]

Its not like that in Japan.

They dont drive 20 year old vehicles like here, they scrap them..

Different culture..

[sandcastcb750]

Reminds me of the EMGO stuff. Even Honda is sourcing everywhere; I got a wire harness from Honda made in some eastern block country. If it works, does it matter.

Yea, some of the early sandcast parts were scuzzy too.

[hapsh]

Its not like that in Japan.

They dont drive 20 year old vehicles like here, they scrap them..

Different culture..

Not quite.  Yes they don't usually drive around older vehicles as much as we do in the US.  However they do enjoy vintage cars and bikes.  They usually have them restored to a T, since their inspection laws don't allow them to drive/ride old rust buckets with dents and scratches.  The last time I was over there I saw plenty of early 80s bikes in great shape.

I think the spare parts issue is very common in Japan.  I work for a Japanese Semiconductor supplier.  We constantly have issues with spare parts availability.  They usually don't produce spare parts unless a certain amount of orders come in on a regular basis.  Some parts are not even made until a request comes in, making lead times in the Months.  Especially in this time of cost cutting most companies are trying to save money by cutting the stock levels of older parts that are not ordered very often.  I don't think they stop stocking parts on older bikes to force us to buy new bikes.  If there was enough demand for replacement 4-4 exhausts I think they would gladly produce some.  That is, if they have not moth balled the tooling.

[Steve F]

Its not like that in Japan.

They dont drive 20 year old vehicles like here, they scrap them..

Different culture..

In Japan, if you don't have the latest-greatest-newest-techno toy, you're not with it, and don't know $41t.

[charlevoix418]

How about a project through sohc4 group to find a manufacturer that could be willing to duplicate 4 to 4 exhausts or any other impossible to find part?

BTW, 2 CB350F mufflers and pipes have been sold on Ebay during the weekend for more than 500$ each!

Raynald from Canada

[c15racer]

id like a killswitch switch for my 500/4, are they obtainable or are there any in a funny country? it doesnt bother me where theyre from as long as they keep our bikes going

[Raul CB750K1]

13 euro a pair of sidecovers is something worth considering. Cheaper than other replicae like Maiers, and if you don't like the paint you can always have them painted at a fraction of the cost. Maybe they are doing the aftermarket parts over there for the local market; I doubt there are many big bore bikes over there, so most of the parts will be for the low displacement bikes.

[mikedialect]

some valuable info here. It's much appreciated. I'm still not sure what the consensus is, though.

Have any of these switches or other parts (besides the side cover) been tried and tested by folks here?

[BobbyR]

some valuable info here. It's much appreciated. I'm still not sure what the consensus is, though.

Have any of these switches or other parts (besides the side cover) been tried and tested by folks here?

Mike, I guess there is no consensus. If there is a market for "replica" parts someone will fill it. Everyone is outsourcing. China is outsourcing to Vietnam for lower labor costs!
Some companies in these emerging nations may now be doing contract manufacturing for Honda and others right now. If so, they have the ability to make a quality parts. Plastics are easy enough to do, exhausts would be no big stretch.
You may find some crude cheap parts made for local low cost consumption like the one Raul posted, and you may find some high quality stuff coming out. The CMSL stuff may be contract parts from China and maybe David Silver also. Where they are being made is not known by us. My new "American" luxury car was assembled in Mexico, with a Japanese transmission and God knows what else. It's a crapshoot Mike. 

[754]

What I was saying, it is not in their best interest to keep all old bikes going forever.

Oem part come in 2 basic categories:
Manufacturer made by themselves,
 ie HONDA actually produced the part.

&

Vendor products.

Vendor products are made by outside sources to factory specs, and sometimes by more than 1 supplier over a period of years. IE, tires, electrical parts, DENSO, NIKKO, etc, brake parts,Tokico..etc.

So sometimes when there is demand they will build a "run of parts" according to projected demand. This may be a 100 units, 400, or 1000..or a different number. When they run out then they may or may not make them again.

I canrt think of a single part that would be made in small quantities., you simply cannot set up to make a few in most cases..

So keep in mind, it may have been re-introduced, and you may laugh if you see them on ebay with an inflated price, but if you are not careful the dealer supply may run out...

[dustyc]

Have any of these switches or other parts (besides the side cover) been tried and tested by folks here?

I bought some mirrors.  About 500 miles of riding and the mirror popped out and broke.  I didn't even hit a bump when it left, just making a left hand turn and out it went.  After that, I'd expect a muffler to rust out within a short amount of time or a switch to fail from cheap metal. 

[BobbyR]

754 may be correct. A lot of parts are really not unique to Honda. Some items you will find on Kawis, Suzis so the number of existing bikes may be higher than we imagine.
I work for a Japanese manufacturer that also makes Motorcycles. The Engineers tend to use as many commodity parts as possible to lower costs.  The competition uses the same parts but each Company has a unique part number. Honda and the rest over the years make a lot of small bikes sold in India and other Countries. It is not outside the realm of possibility they took the older part designs  and moved them down the food chain. The tooling is in place and it works. Why design a new part, the guy riding to work in Bangalore does not care he is using a 1969 designed shift lever, headlight bucket, turn signal lights, etc. There may be far more parts out there than we imagine, especially the simple ones that always seem to break.              

[754]

Mufflers require Dies to build.. which is really expensive..

 A short run on dies is still a considerable number, ie they may laugh at the idea of only running a thosand sets.

 Bottom like expensive set-up.

 Now if someone has the dies.. which may bw the case.. then it is easier to start making money at it..

[754]

Vendors may supply more than one factory, but I am not seeing much, if any interchange.

 What I am trying to show is that some of the parts were made by companies, that may be extinct, may not manufacture those items any, may not produce anything for that maker anymore, may have lost money on the origiinal production & would laugh at being asked to do it again..

 Then there is tooling, it may exist, or may have been scrapped. They may want to sell or may not (even if the never plan on using it again)

 There are a lot of reasons for not goiung into production..

[BobbyR]

Mufflers require Dies to build.. which is really expensive..

 A short run on dies is still a considerable number, ie they may laugh at the idea of only running a thosand sets.

 Bottom like expensive set-up.

 Now if someone has the dies.. which may bw the case.. then it is easier to start making money at it..

True, but think small. In a Country where the people who set up the dies makes $5.00 a day it is not much. A lot of "factories" in other parts of the World are real small, there are just a lot of them. My friends replica headlights are made in India and he buys under way under 1,000. We in the US think large, we can't help doing so because it is all we know. Time will tell.

[754]

Cb 750,
6 or 8 dies or more, male and female.. the length of the muffler plus.

weighing at least 400 lbs per dieset.. so at least300+ lbs of tool steel at4$ or plus per lb.

Then add machining, them add hardening, then press-time.. maybe a 100 ton press would do it, but mabe more like 150 or better.

Then when they made them they probably used trim dies..another 6 or 8 diesets. Good news.. today you can do this with a 3D laser trimming machine..

And on it goes, then you got to bend the tubing too...more work..

 None of that muffler work is that complex on aftermarket headers...

Now the headlight die, one to 3 dies around the size of a full-face helmet.. only maybe 500 lbs of tool steel or less.. and its a round part, much of it can be made on lathes, cheaper than milling.. fairly simple easy part.. a lot of difference between lights and a seamed muffler..

The hardest part.. getting someone to put up the money...

[Raul CB750K1]

A motorcycle company bread&butter is not the sale of spare parts. That's something they have to do, and even if they have a 400% difference in price between retail and manufacturer, it probably just covers the costs of storage, transportation, money invested and retailer profit.

For a motorcycle manufacturer, building spokes or brake lines gives no added value. They make the profit on the development and assembly. Those small parts like bolts or brake pads can be purchased from specialized companies, that builds them for a wide spectrum of manufacturers.

Years ago, all cars and bikes had round headlights. Car or bike designers had to design the product, having into account the available headlights. Now, designers have freedom of action. They can design any shape of headlight they think will get more car sales, and the headlight company will be comissioned to build that headlight on a budget. Once the cars are sold, the car company will no longer care for the headlight, leaving the headlight company to make a profit selling spares at 300% the price of what they charged the car company. Nevertheless, the car company will stock some of them to be sold at 500% the price they originally paid. In case of an accident the insurance company will pay the bill, so why not selling original parts? If the customer pays the bill and is looking for a cheap price, let him buy it at the manufacturer.


Royal Enfield sold the dies and tooling to Enfield India in the 60's, and the same did BMW to Ural and DNPR. Maybe Honda did the same with the obsolete designs and they are being still manufactured over there. No wonder the local market is offering spare parts at a fraction of the cost.

[charlevoix418]

OK,

but if high quality replica mufflers and pipes already exist but are expensive, can't we dicuss with the manufacturer some kind of arrangement that could reduce cost?  Even the possibility to have them manufactured in stainless steel instead of regular chromed steel?

Should we start a poll to evaluate the quantity of people that could be interested to participate in that kind of group purchasing?

http://www.motostoricheitaliane.com/omol_70_80_90.html

Raynald from Canada

[Raul CB750K1]

can't we dicuss with the manufacturer some kind of arrangement that could reduce cost? 

The subject of cost reduction is a responsability of the manufacturer, not the customer. Manufacturer must reduce costs to increase his profits, because he will always charge the maximum that the customer is willing to pay, irrespective of the cost of manufacturing. It is up to the manufacturer if the difference between retail price and manufacturing cost is worth the hassle of manufacturing in first place.

[Terry in Australia]

Most of the parts I'm using for rebuilding my Honda cb 125s came from e-bay sellers from Thailand. I enclose a picture of the sidecovers. In the diamond the Honda wings are painted, but I think that in the original ones it had a better quality. The price was 13 euro for the pair. The price at cmsnl was 22 euro for each, and they are not available, and I didn't want to pay 50 euro for a used cover on e-bay.
I wouldn't buy a vital part of the bike like pistons, or camshafts, or camchains from a thai seller if they are still available from Honda, but probably this is just a superstition. Some of the parts I bought from cmsnl had a holographic logo on the bag, maybe to guarantee their authenticity, but some others don't have the holographic image, so maybe I've been paying 4 euro for an inch of rubber made in Thailand, and well packed in a bag with a fake Honda stick on it.

That's definitely a fake part mate, I just checked, and Honda never made a SOHC4 125! You poor bugger, you got swindled!

[bryanj]

500 and 750 exhausts are still, at this time, made by Honda the 350 was made but the last full batch had incorrect No2(I think) pipes due to a jig fault and Honda decided there wernt enough 350's left to warrant the expense of a new jig.

The new 750 and 500 exhausts are not of the same "polish" quality as the originals BUT I bet if complaints go in Honda will just stop supplying rather than go to the cost of re-making jigs and tooling.

Its only because thes old bikes were so reliable in the first place that there are enough left to warant the manufacture of parts, and just as an example in the early 80's one 500 exhaust cost £60 (£240 the set) Now, from Dave Silver, they are £79 each so they represent remarkable value

[Marco83]

guys, i m from singapore.
i bought my NOS K2 seat at singapore for $20usd.
NOS RPM meter $20usd.

Do you guys know david silver spares came to singapore and buy all the NOS parts back to UK and sell? They bought few container of parts from singapore and ship back to UK.

david silver spares sell a NOS seat: 200-300pound
Singapore old man shop sell a NOS seat: 50sgd

David Silver spares fly around asia to buy parts during 90's.

If you guys notie there is a seller nick 'Old parts shop' on ebay, his parts are all NOS from singapore.
He bought the NOS part for few $$ and sell at ebay with super high price...
 
All the price are NOS, just that after 30 year and that why does not look 100%.

Singapore using the COE system..
before we buy a car, we need to pay for that and only last 10years. The price range 8-13k usd.. After 10years, need to pay the COE again.

That why many vintage bike was scrap and left over many NOS parts..
Few year back, my friends bought a set of NOS cb350f pipes for only 200sgd(less than 150usd).


Last time i been to thai and the NOS part also quite cheap and is cheaper than singapore but now many people fly there and buy all the parts at very cheap price and post on ebay with a sky high price....

 

[Marco83]

Bought this NOS for only $20SGD. I saw ebay sell that for over 100usd



Bought a set NOS for $6SGD

[hoodellyhoo]

anybody want to go to singapore?