Author Topic: Bio Gasoline  (Read 2763 times)

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Bio Gasoline
« on: April 24, 2008, 05:14:54 AM »
Came across this in the paper recently. My first thought was, great $1/gal. gasoline. Then I thought, maybe not so great. :-\
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 05:35:25 AM »
Sounds good to me Bob, there have got to be more options out there than just bending over and grabbing our ankles.................  :o
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 05:58:28 AM »
I'm not so sure in the long run. When something is dirt cheap we waste it, no mention of the long-term impacts of using the fuel 'sources.' All the agri-business lobbyists thought ethanol from corn was the next best thing since sliced bread. Aside from the not so favorable math on the energy in vs. energy out, I found the use of food stock for vehicle fuel to be a very sad commentary on human behaviour. What would be the long-term environmental affects of all those Lincoln Navigators that would take the roads? We humans aren't very foresighted.

Ooops, my social soapbox just collapsed. ;)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 06:02:45 AM »
Yeah, well I'd rather give the money to Aussie farmers than to Arab oil producers Bob, but I guess that's just me..............  :P
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Mudder

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 06:07:55 AM »
I'm a believer in biofuel tech.  Not necessarily for costs, but to wean us from foreign dependence.  There's a lot of $$'s (and pounds) that go directly out of the country to OPEC or S.America that could stay in-country with a sustainable biofuel system.

It's not the answer to our habits though.  Those may never change, especially when there's money to made from them.

eldar

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 06:39:43 AM »
Well change could come if public actually demanded it loud enough.
Say we all start only buying cars that get over 30mpg and I am NOT talking hybrid junk. Give it a little time and gm and the others would start making cars that all got over 30. Course things like this require people (mostly guys) to stop compensating for their "short comings". I get real tired of seeing people in these giant suvs and it is only them. no one else, just that 1 person.

Here in ND, we have so much wind, there is no excuse to not have turbines everywhere to generate power.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 07:34:14 AM »
Bio-fuel will fix a problem and create a bigger one. Suddenly, farmland that you could buy for a song will increase in value. Therefore, all land will increase its value, making housing even more expensive. Water reservoirs will be used to irrigate the sudden increase of crops. Cereal price will rise; just wait and see how much you will have to pay for your cereal box, sliced breath, cookies or Big Mac. Not to mention beer, whiskey, even meat as a big part of farm animals are feeded with cereals. Yes, we know that poor countries will have a big time buying basic food from abroad when rich countries have cash in hand, but it is not our fault that their soil is not good to produce any edible thing. :'(

So it is better to give your money to your national farmers than the arab oil producers? Does it make any difference? Your national farmers will not probably be "national" and won't invest the money in the country, because the cereal price will be controlled by big cartels. Little "farmer giles" will have to sell the cereal at whatever price the big companies decide, and they will sell the bio-fuel at just a 10% less than regular gas because they already know what's the maximum that people is willing to pay, regardless of how much the manufacturing cost is. Big companies will pocket the profits, not farmers, small or big. In fact, it will probably be the same oil companies the ones that will manufacture and distribute the new fuel, but this time they won't buy the raw materials to the arabs.

The only good thing of this is that if the arabs find out that there is an alternative, they will reduce their selling price. But again, that will not go into the consumer pockets because the oil companies will pocket the profits.


If you have trouble making ends meet, the solution is not to increase your income, but to reduce your expenditure. The solution to the fuel shortage is not to find another source, but to change our habits. If we don't want to depend on the arabs, the solution is not to find a "lesser evil" than the arabs, but to change our lifestyle so we don't depend -much- on them.

The arabs have the "scarcity factor". They can control the price as long as the scarce product is needed. If you find another source, you are transferring the scarcity factor to somebody else, and as soon as he realizes the power he have, will use it. The only way to reduce the scarcity factor is to reduce the demand so the ratio availability vs demand increases for our benefit.


Just by having fuel economy in mind when buying a new car, rationalizing our driving habits, leaving the car for commuting and once-a-week shopping, and using public transport whenever possible, will put money in your pockets from gas saved.



Do the following. Find out the residual value of your car after five years. Substract it from the acquisition price, including the interest money. Add the 5-year insurance cost. Divide all by 1825. That's what your car costs you a day just for sitting in the garage, not counting the price of products for cleaning, accesories etc.

Now divide your last service bill amount by the number of miles between services. Divide the cost of your tires between the miles needed to wore them out. Divide the price of a gallon of gas by the average mpg of your car. Add the three numbers. Now you have roughly how much does your car cost per mile.


Multiply this last figures by the number of miles you commute every day. Add what your car costs you every day for sitting in the garage. That's how much does it costs you to commute by car.

Divide your weekly after-taxes salary by the number of hours you work a week. Divide the cost of your daily commute by that last figure. That is the time you have to work every day just to pay the cost of your daily commute.

Add the duration of your commute to the time you have to work every day to pay for it. That is the amount of time a day you waste in nothing productive FOR YOU. During that time a day you are paying your car manufacturer, the oil companies, the arabs, your boss, and the government, but you ain't paying yourself a dime.


Now say that you commute by public transportation. The price is exactly the ticket fare. But your car is still sitting in the garage. Following the same logic than before, find out how much time a day you need to work to pay for your idle car and your ticket fare.


Now add your commuting time to the time you need to work every day to pay for those costs. If the figure is lower than the previous one, it is most cost-effective to commute by public transportation, because you spend less time paying others and start to pay yourself sooner.


If you have read up to this, thanks for your patience....  ;D

Mudder

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 07:48:48 AM »
Raul makes a good point about production cost and source.  I don't think turning food production into fuel production is the right choice.  However there are crops that can grow in non-food source areas, like canola, rapeseed, and algae, that are viable options.  The technology isn't there yet, but has promise.

I'm not sure about the math when you discuss the cost of items like cereal/rice/etc.  I know I've paid more recently for all produce/grains in part to rising fuel and delivery costs.  Changing our shipping methods would be a good start to saving money, but one that would cost in the area of job-loss.  For example using trains instead of trucks would be a big fuel/energy saver, but at the cost of truck drivers.

This is a much more complex issue that I initially thought.  I might not be smart enough to discuss this much more thoroughly...

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 07:54:43 AM »
I dont have all the facts, so feel free to correct me, but the way I understand it is that the US government subsidises farmers to NOT grow as much crop as they could in order to keep the demand high. Is this right???? If so, why not grow the maximum possible. This seems obvious.

Offline Joel

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 08:25:23 AM »
Crops like sugar beets, Jerusalem artichokes and switch grass could probably be used better for ethanol production than corn.  I know the government used to pay farmers not to grow crops to affect prices but I don't know for sure if much of that is happening right now.  It would seem foolish to do so with demand for corn and soybeans up.

The biggest plus I've heard about switch grass is that it's a perennial crop that doesn't need to be replanted each year and can use land that isn't suitable for food crops.  However, I don't think the technology is at a point where it can compete with other forms of ethanol production or the cost of oil yet.  I've seen news of one company building a plant that can use almost any carbon feedstock, such as trash, for ethanol production and has reduced the water consumption to only about a gallon per gallon of ethanol produced.  (http://www.coskata.com/)

Personally, I think one of the best things about ethanol or biodiesel is the ability for a user to produce their own fuel.  I don't think biodiesel requires any permits but I'm not certain how expensive or difficult the pressing process is and the reaction process requires some more expensive equipment and/or good chemistry skills.  Ethanol requires a fuel distillation permit from the federal government, which I believe is free, and a still can be built for a few hundred dollars but typical fermentation requires about a week.

The one thing about higher gas prices is it forces consumers to look for alternatives whether it be a new source of fuel or new habits of consumption.  Money is one of the easiest ways to get people to do something. :)

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2008, 08:31:04 AM »

If you have read up to this, thanks for your patience....  ;D

Raul wins the longest reply award. ;D
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Mudder

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 08:51:38 AM »

The one thing about higher gas prices is it forces consumers to look for alternatives whether it be a new source of fuel or new habits of consumption.  Money is one of the easiest ways to get people to do something. :)

Yup, but one downside is all the cool cycles get bought up for more money.  ;)

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2008, 09:21:45 AM »
As Raul and I said, it is all about the public forcing the change. Ultimately, we all allow these companies to get away with it.

If we all stopped being so wasteful about things, the situation will change. Currently my car gets 20 mpg, I htink that sucks and if I could, I would buy something that gets at least 30 if not more. but that is only one aspect of it. Look at all the products we buy. All this stuff that is termed "throw away". maybe if we fixed what broke instead of just tossing it, it might help. I know it would help actually. Less resources used to make more, less used in recycling IF a person actually recycles and less pollution in landfills. Sure it might cost almost as much but sometimes I wonder if things would break as much if people treated things better like we do our bikes.

Problem is that we have too many people with the attitude of "it is my money, I will do what I want with it."

Offline Demon67

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2008, 09:40:44 AM »
Guys I don't know but it seems to me that cars used to get over 30 mpg maybe that was just with the bigger imperial gallon am I mis remembering? Raul I agree, my or our problem is where I live it's not practical to walk or bicycle, no sidewalks, long distances, cold weather, etc and moving closer to a place that has public transport is not an option.
Bill.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2008, 09:56:12 AM »
Guys I don't know but it seems to me that cars used to get over 30 mpg maybe that was just with the bigger imperial gallon am I mis remembering?

Small Japanese cars have always gotten good mileage, but it seems like there's a lot more big-ass SUV's around than those these days.  Not many American cars (at least not the ones sold in America) ever got over 30mpg, exept maybe the escort, neon and the Geo's that were actually produced domestically. 

Offline Joel

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2008, 10:27:32 AM »

The one thing about higher gas prices is it forces consumers to look for alternatives whether it be a new source of fuel or new habits of consumption.  Money is one of the easiest ways to get people to do something. :)

Yup, but one downside is all the cool cycles get bought up for more money.  ;)

I know. :(  Especially all those beautiful 400s...

Offline mark

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2008, 10:36:33 AM »
My Truck:.....1999 Nissan Frontier 6cyl 4WD
Stays parked most of the time because it only get 15mph......

Remember when a Datsun pickup weighed almost a ton dripping wet and got 30+mpg?

Remember when 3 or 4 big guys would put someone's Honda Civic up on their porch as a gag? A new Civic weighs nearly 3000 pounds!
A/C.. Cruise Control... 15 cupholders.. and all the Nerfworld 'safety' crap.
Ordinary people used to drive around in the Summertime sweating with the windows rolled down - and get hurt when they wrecked the car. 'Consumers' cannot live without A/C, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission has decreed that they must be protected from the possibility of injury.... thus the 3000lb. Civic that gets 23mpg.


bah.





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Offline Gordon

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2008, 11:36:54 AM »
thus the 3000lb. Civic that gets 23mpg.


With things like variable valve timing and all the other technological engine improvements that have come around in the last decade or so, lots of cars, especially the Civic, could easily get 30mpg or more, but people are much more interested in horsepower and 0-60 times than fuel economy.  That will all change when their monthly gas costs start rivaling their mortgage payments, though. 

Just look at most of the Hybrid cars.  They could probably get 100mpg if they wanted to, but instead they use the torque of the electric motor to make the cars be able to zoom away at every green light. 

Offline johnny_from_bel

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2008, 01:10:59 PM »

Small Japanese cars have always gotten good mileage, but it seems like there's a lot more big-ass SUV's around than those these days.  Not many American cars (at least not the ones sold in America) ever got over 30mpg, exept maybe the escort, neon and the Geo's that were actually produced domestically. 

E=1/2m*V*V

Light cars drive slow will allways yield better mpg.
mpg of a lexus is not terible either.

FTR my chevy 2.4L runs 35 mpg.

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2008, 01:31:01 PM »
hemp is supposedly a very good source for biofuels...I'm gonna go hide under my tinfoil hat now

Offline DarkRider

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 05:06:25 AM »
I have seriously been looking into building an EV of somesort for the around town commuting i do for groceries and what not...maybe something like this..

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Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 05:52:26 AM »
First, National Geographic had an issue about 4 months ago devoted to this topic and it was very informative.  Anyone interested in the science and politics behind bio-fuels should look it up.

Second, the idea that controlling demand for a depleting resource is the best way to control price is incorrect.  The best way to control the cost of any resource is to introduce a competing product at a lower price.  As long as the new product can provide the majority of the benefits as the older (maybe even some new ones) and doesn't introduce negative effects or introduces acceptable negative effects it will quickly assume a large portion of the market share.  At that point the makers of the original product will begin to reduce their prices to recover market share.  This begins a type of price war with the new entrant bottoming out  their margins due to the higher relative cost of production. 

Once established a business continually creates efficiencies to run as lean as possible.  Newcomers rarely are able to take advantage of efficiencies within the crucial early years as they are still paying for the R&D that created the product, refining the product for better competition, etc.  Unless the market develops an early loyalty to the new product or a large distributor chooses the new product at the detriment of the old, it is doomed.

OK.  I don't want to compete for the longest reply and I've got work to do.  Last thought...  There are many smaller nations making a surplus of bio-fuel from crops better suited to the conversion such as sugar cane.  If we planted sugar cane in the few areas that could support it's growth in the US, we'd be able to reduce our dependency on gasoline dramatically.   
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 06:03:35 AM »
Yeah, and I'd rather give the money to our farmers than to Arab oil producers who use our money to fund terrorism against us, but I guess that's just me..............   :P
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 06:08:27 AM »
Yeah, and I'd rather give the money to our farmers than to Arab oil producers who use our money to fund terrorism against us, but I guess that's just me..............   :P
but when you see on any pump that has any percentage of ethanol in it that it is illegal (at least in aus) to use it in a plane then i know its going to do some damage eventually, and ethanol dont like old seals, kinda destroys engines if they arent used to it

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 06:25:54 AM »
The idea that if in a monopoly, another company chimes in with a lower price, the first company will reduce the price to recover market share never works. The fact is that big companies always agree to set the maximum price.

In Spain, the price of gas is left to the seller's will up to a maximum set up by the government. The idea behind this is that distributors are free to sell at a lower price to get more customers.

The fact is that ALL of them sell gas at the government-decided maximum. They already know that their market share won't move much. If I reduce my selling price to get 5% more customers, my increase in demand compensates my reduction in profits so I'm just as it was, while my competitor is just worse. He will then reduce its selling price to recover that 5% customers I stole, so we will be back to square one but we will have reduced our sale price and therefore our profit. We are here for our profit, not for the customers, so the intelligent thing to do is to sell ALL of us at the maximum and let the customers decide where to buy among non-existent options. At the end of the day, people will gas up in the closest gas station to their daily commute.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 06:39:08 AM »
Geez, have you got any good news Raul? You're bumming me out man...................  :P
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

troppo

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 06:43:47 AM »
Geez, have you got any good news Raul? You're bumming me out man...................  :P

Come on terry, look around..... One servo puts the price to $1.56 per litre because theres a long weekend looming and they all do it, one puts the price down a few cents and they all do that too. Its all a damned conspiracy, i dont care what the ACCC says, the price goes up as soon as the price of oil goes up, they dont buy it that day, its already here for gods sake

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 06:49:58 AM »
Geez, have you got any good news Raul? You're bumming me out man...................  :P

Come on terry, look around..... One servo puts the price to $1.56 per litre because theres a long weekend looming and they all do it, one puts the price down a few cents and they all do that too. Its all a damned conspiracy, i dont care what the ACCC says, the price goes up as soon as the price of oil goes up, they dont buy it that day, its already here for gods sake

I worked for Mobil for 15 years mate, and I could tell you how it really works, but I don't want to get thrown off the Kingfisher oil rig, wearing nothing but a pair of concrete booties................  :o
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Soos

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2008, 06:59:10 AM »
Terry, your comment on funding terrorists reminded me of a sticker I saw about 4-5 weeks ago.
it said: Go ahead, do 75, you can fund the terrorists that much faster.

Mind you the person driving was doing 50-55mph....

As for the use of biofuels, I could see massive profits for some new companies.
And possibly a farmer or two(thousand?) that could ACTUALLY AFFORD to run the farm, and not have to sell due to having not made enough off his/her crops..
The US in particular I think would greatly benefit in many ways from this.


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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2008, 07:10:34 AM »
Very true mate, it'd be nice to be growing fuel crops now, rather than relying on diminishing pools of crude oil, but I can see people arguing the pros and cons right up until the day before we run out of "black gold".  :P 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline neil young

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2008, 08:47:00 AM »
just heard yesterday that gas will cost over 2 dollars a litre in Canada buy 2012.
at the moment it is $1.21 a litre.
a mere 10 years ago it was 40 cents a litre.now that they know we will pay $1.00 and like it we are screwed.
people always say that the goverment should step in and reduce the costs....but the goverment taxes every litre or gallon,so with every increase they make more money in taxes.good luck trying to convince a goverment to help out the little guy.
Bill Gates gets #$%*ed over his monopoly on Windows...but OPEC gets nothing but pure profit....check out the record profits the oil companies have had over the last few years.
before every long weekend gas prices rise and then drop when the weekend is over.it's a f#$king joke.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2008, 08:56:05 AM »
Neil, so in Canada the gas tax is a percentage of the total price? Here, in Mich. anyway, it's so many cents per gallon so it doesn't change with the price of a gallon charged.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Joel

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2008, 09:37:07 AM »
just heard yesterday that gas will cost over 2 dollars a litre in Canada buy 2012.
at the moment it is $1.21 a litre.
a mere 10 years ago it was 40 cents a litre.now that they know we will pay $1.00 and like it we are screwed.
people always say that the goverment should step in and reduce the costs....but the goverment taxes every litre or gallon,so with every increase they make more money in taxes.good luck trying to convince a goverment to help out the little guy.
Bill Gates gets #$%*ed over his monopoly on Windows...but OPEC gets nothing but pure profit....check out the record profits the oil companies have had over the last few years.
before every long weekend gas prices rise and then drop when the weekend is over.it's a f#$king joke.

Since OPEC isn't based in the United States, our government can't force them to comply with anti-trust laws.  The best way to get them to change is to find a substitute product.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 02:45:17 PM by Joel C »

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: Bio Gasoline
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2008, 09:37:51 AM »

people always say that the goverment should step in and reduce the costs....but the goverment taxes every litre or gallon,so with every increase they make more money in taxes.good luck trying to convince a goverment to help out the little guy.
Bill Gates gets #$%*ed over his monopoly on Windows...but OPEC gets nothing but pure profit....check out the record profits the oil companies have had over the last few years.
before every long weekend gas prices rise and then drop when the weekend is over.it's a f#$king joke.

We live in a capitalistic society.  The oil companies are running a very profitable business.  There is no monopoly as there are several large oil companies in the US.  As to OPEC, that is in no way a US entity and is not subject to the laws of the US.  Just because we don't like something does not mean that we can subject them to our rules.

Government regulation is certainly not the answer.  Did it work when the government got involved in healthcare?  Not at all.  In fact, government regulation is the largest contributing factor to the high cost of healthcare in the US.  Just imagine what they could do to gas prices if they tried to help...

Edit:  Joel types faster (and more concisely than I do)  :)
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle