Author Topic: Air Box Sea Worthy?  (Read 1849 times)

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Offline Dave Wyatt

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Air Box Sea Worthy?
« on: June 30, 2008, 07:10:31 AM »
Has anyone ever had difficulty keeping water out of the air box?  My CB750A has been giving me fits in rain, or even on a wet road.  I have chased this from one direction to another and am now looking at the airbox.  I got caught in a goose drownder Friday evening and barely kept the bike running.  If it wasn't for the accelerator pump shooting in extra fuel as I continuously cranked the grip, the damn bike would have died completely.  The other day I rode through a very small puddle and it coughed and burbled a moment later.

Yesterday as I was washing Friday's grit and grime off, I ran the bike and sprayed it with the hose from different angles.  From the right rear, towards the engine, it started cutting out.  I had been spraying directly on the carbs, and had no reactions until I moved to the rear.  It makes me think it's coming in around the two halves, or sucking water though the rear facing opening on the bottom.

Any thoughts?
Dave Wyatt
1976 CB750A
1965 C100
2008 GL1800
I swear, the damn things are starting to breed!

Offline Gordon

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 07:18:01 AM »
Seems like if it was sucking in enough water through the air box to cause running issues that it would also be sucking in enough air in places that it shouldn't (bypassing the filter) and causing lean running problems, too. 

It's possible it's an electrical issue.  Do your ignition wires run up over the lower right area of the engine?

Offline 333

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 07:21:05 AM »
If you suspect the airbox is leaking, I would suggest sealing it up with silicone RTV.  I'd look at the rubbers as well.
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upperlake04

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 07:50:17 AM »
 The last two new air filters, one from a general recreation vehicle supplier and the other from the Honda dealer, did not fit properly in the stock airbox. A comparison with the original factory air filter showed that the new ones were a 1 millimeter or two thicker and the glued on foam gaskets on top and bottom were also thicker and much stiffer and less compressible. These differences wouldn't allow the airbox halves to  seal together correctly and left a gap between the halves all around.  The first was fixed by removing the new foam gaskets and replacing them with the originals, the second new filter I left the top stiff thicker foam gasket in place, removed the bottom gasket and sealed the filter to the airbox bottom with a small bead of silicone. I have not removed this filter yet. ;)   
  Another thought is that there were small pieces of gravel and sand laying on the bottom of the lower airbox half, insidethe filter. A straightedge placed inside the lower half on the surface the filter would seat against  showed the 30 year old plastic was distorted  downward a few millimeters which allowed unfiltered air into the system. Thats why I used the silicone.
  If water is getting into the airbox, its possible either or both of these conditions could be the cause.

Offline kghost

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 08:40:04 AM »
I dunno if the 750A has the plastic inner fender.....

If it does is it in good shape?
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Offline bistromath

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2008, 08:53:42 AM »
Second the electrical. My 550 used to show the same symptoms (bogging down in the rain, running on 2 or 3) until I replaced plug wires and sealed the plug boots. Sounds more likely than sucking water in through the intake, unless you're running pods.
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eldar

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2008, 09:07:05 AM »
I suppose a little water could be getting in but a very small amount. Any large amount would cause hydro lock and well, that is just not good.

Offline Dave Wyatt

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2008, 09:28:42 AM »
I upgraded the ignition over the winter.  New Dyna coils, wires, and a Hondaman CD ignition box.  I can flood the front with water and it never acts up.  I have had problems with gusts of wind causing it to cut out.  Recently I coated the intake rubber boots with plasti-dip tool handle coating (thin liquid rubber that dries quickly), and they don't seem to let any water in.  I also replaced the clamps with screw type hose clamps,

I'll check the filter.  Now that you mention it, the new filter was a little thicker than the original, but the problem had been there before I swapped it out.  The problem had been getting worse as time progressed, so I will pull the air box and check for gaps.  While I'm at it I'll also check to see that the rear tire isn't slinging water into the air intake.
Dave Wyatt
1976 CB750A
1965 C100
2008 GL1800
I swear, the damn things are starting to breed!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2008, 09:29:52 AM »
The other day I rode through a very small puddle and it coughed and burbled a moment later.

When this occurred on my 550, I (eventually) found out it was water getting under the points cover, and bridging the open points, which reduces spark voltage.
The standard cork gasket there is good for one compression cycle at best, IF it was installed correctly.
I bought some 1/16 neoprene at the hardware store and cut a cover gasket out of it.  This not only sealed the cover properly, but is resilient enough to be reusable.

I had no more issues with running in the rain.  Well, except that front brake....

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eldar

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2008, 09:34:16 AM »
Dave, when wind gusts I also get a bit of a cut out. now when I say gusts, I mean at least 30 mile per hour gusts. Around here, anything less than that is not a gust. It is a breeze. it only seems to happen when going into the wind though.

Offline 754

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2008, 09:41:00 AM »
If a stock paper filter is getting damp, it will take a very long time to dry out..

If you are riding in rain stop and pull it out, if the symptoms continue then you know it is elsewhere.

 like mentioned point cover, plugs etc..

 Not brought up yet but does not the A have a wing styled fender that may be dribbling water off different than a CB..??
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Offline Dave Wyatt

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 01:09:18 PM »
The points cover is heavily RTV'd and shows no sign of leakage, even after a heavy blast from the garden hose.  I gave up on that gasket a long time ago.

I'll probably go ahead and pull the box for a thorough inspection before it sees rain again.  I may even try some partial submerging and look for leakage.  While it's out, Ill check the rear fender area and make sure the rear tire cannot directly sling water into the opening of the air box.
Dave Wyatt
1976 CB750A
1965 C100
2008 GL1800
I swear, the damn things are starting to breed!

Offline kghost

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 03:26:47 PM »
Rear tire will sure mist the airbox and everything else if the palstic inner fender is missing or damaged.
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Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 03:53:04 PM »
The other day I rode through a very small puddle and it coughed and burbled a moment later.

When this occurred on my 550, I (eventually) found out it was water getting under the points cover, and bridging the open points, which reduces spark voltage.
The standard cork gasket there is good for one compression cycle at best, IF it was installed correctly.
I bought some 1/16 neoprene at the hardware store and cut a cover gasket out of it.  This not only sealed the cover properly, but is resilient enough to be reusable.

I had no more issues with running in the rain.  Well, except that front brake....

Cheers,

+1 to points cover leak.  'zpecally if you are running the HondaMan Ignition Module.  The HMIM operates at a much lower current then points without the module.  If you get enough water in there to saturate the fiber washer/insulator, then you're really in for spark troubles.

My points cover was sealed with high temp grease only (an even worse situation then a crushed cork gasket!).  Neoprene has been added to my shopping list.  Thanks for the tip Lloyd!
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Offline pdxPope

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »

What color is the smoke coming out of the exhaust when you spray it w/ the hose?
IF water is getting sucked into the intake you will get massive amounts of white smoke (steam, actually).
What do the plugs look like before & after the hosing?
Pull a plug & look down the hole @ the top of a cyl. Is it REALLY clean?

If these things are happening / present than you are getting water into the engine.

I second (or is it 3rd by now?) the thought that you are shorting out somewhere as opposed to sucking H2O.

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Offline 754

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 06:48:23 PM »
If you have a wet paper filter it will run like crap for hours after it gets wet..
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 07:05:36 PM »
...isn't water in the intake also called the 'chinese water torture' and used by some as a method of cleaning carbon out of the cylinders?  not to say that this is a good thing in your situation, but... once you get it fixed, you might be better off for having had this happen.
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Offline Dave Wyatt

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 08:31:20 AM »
...isn't water in the intake also called the 'Chinese water torture' and used by some as a method of cleaning carbon out of the cylinders?  not to say that this is a good thing in your situation, but... once you get it fixed, you might be better off for having had this happen.

In this case it was the Japanese water torture.

Got the hose out over the weekend and wet the bike down.  The points cover area took a good dousing, with no ill effects.  The air box didn't fair as well.  Upon closer examination, the sides had small gaps showing between the halves.  I did find some water on the carb side of the element, when I opened it up.  I removed the foam gasket from one side of the filter, then took the air box gasket out and performed a little surgery on it.  That particular gasket had grown over time, and no longer fit the space.  After a good cleaning, I reassembled the box.  At this point I was satisfied with the fit, so I ran a bead of black silicone sealer around the joint.  Of course this means I had to install the air box in one large piece, which is a PITA, but it can be done with some finessing.  Good thing I will get a couple years out of the filter.

Yesterday morning was the first test in the rain.  While it did not pass with flying colors, it did run much better.  Guess I'll get the hose back out and see if I can find another leak.

FYI...
The extension on the rear fender is in fine shape, and it deflects wheel spray as it should, but I could lengthen it.  Wet coils and wires made no difference either, so I'll head back to the carb area and start there.  It did seem to act up after leaning to the right in a low speed turn?????? 

Thanks for everyone's suggestions and input.  I still have not counted the points out, but I am having trouble figuring out where water might be getting in.  I'll keep looking at everything until it runs 100%
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 11:54:32 AM by Dave Wyatt »
Dave Wyatt
1976 CB750A
1965 C100
2008 GL1800
I swear, the damn things are starting to breed!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Air Box Sea Worthy?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 10:36:32 AM »
The way I found out my points cover was leaking, is that I nursed a sickly running bike home in the rain one day, and removed the cover to find water inside.

Before I came upon the neoprene solution, I avoided riding in the rain.  Still, I got caught one day and parked it in the garage for the night as it was.  Next morning, it ran fine on startup, but half way to work it ran badly again, with no rain or water on the roads!
  The heat from the engine turned the water to steam, whereupon it condensed on the slightly colder points.  The water bridge across he points keeps its respective coil from achieving full charge, and the plugs don't fire reliably.  Dried off the points and it ran fine.  I made the neoprene gasket that night.

FYI, the bottom of the points compartment is machined to drain water out the bottom, regardless of gasket integrity.  So, the compartment is not supposed to be hermetically sealed.  I my case, simply using the garden hose in the driveway didn't effect the poor sealing gasket on my bike.  It wasn't until water had pretty good momentum, that it would finally seep past, like highway speeds.  With the neoprene, pressure washing left it dry inside.  Further, the engine warm up cycle comes into play as there is a period where the engine is hot enough to make steam vapor, yet the points are cold enough to have condensation form on them.

Good luck finding the cause of your run issues!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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