Topic: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?

[jonbuoy]

So if we run our bikes in a clean dust free environmemnt at a steady temperature and constant load,  burning exactly the right fuel mix so that there is no condensation buildup and no contaminents enter the engine  then we would never need to change the oil - great stuff - but we never ride our bikes in those conditions.  What about the paper filter going through a thousand heat cycles and the constant flow of oil eroding it?  The fact that we even  have and need oil filters says it all.

[jmckinne]

The fact that we even  have and need oil filters says it all.

[Munching popcorn]

Don't forget that once the filter is clogged oil flow is reduced too.

[More munching]

[Tower]

1. Like I've already said, the environment is not an oil issue (old or new) An oil change will not stop engine damage from environmental damage - a better air filter might.
2. Burning gasoline, whether poorly or very efficiently, produces contaminants, but not in sufficient quantities to significantly alter the engine oil's properties.  For example, sludge is complicated mixture of oil, water, metal oxides and combustion products.  New oil has fewer metal oxides and combustion products - that just means it might slow sludge formation for the first few miles, but not prevent it, as inevitably, contaminants will be available in the oil.  
3. Operating the bike outside of normal parameters will increase the likelihood of failure (sludge is one byproduct).  The answer is: don't do that! (or use synthetic oil).  That's the cure.  Changing oil more frequently is simply a temporary "medication" for a problem with other causes.
4. Filtration is a good idea because it removes the larger particles and any sludges that have polymerized and are in suspension.  Filters should be changed regularly.(although this can be debated also)
5. Don't forget that oil does get used up (evaporation, chemical alteration, seepage), and hence must be replaced (topped-up).

[mystic_1]

"Blow-by Gasses".










(pass the popcorn, JM)

mystic_1

[jonbuoy]

I see where you guys are coming from in an ideal world and steady operating conditions there probably is no need to change the oil - operators of big marine diesels send oil samples to be checked at regular intervals if the oil still meets the manufacturers spec it doesn't need to be changed.  But these engines  use external filters to keep it clean.  They also spend 95% of their life under steady loads and in a very stable "clean"  environment.  An air cooled motorbike or even water jacketed car/bike engine is a different story and working under completely different operating conditions.   

[bwaller]

Sorry to make fun guys, but while you've been arguing I've enjoyed being out riding!  

Not sure there's an answer here, but hey go for it!

[Tower]

pass the popcorn

Your point @jonbuoy is a good one and should enter into this debate.  (See we aren't arguing @bwaller, we're "debating" - to some that may be as much fun as riding  - except for @mystic_1 - he's just a sludge disturber

The question under debate is more than "Are oil changes good?"  Since we know they certainly don't hurt.  or even "Are oil changes better than no oil changes?"  Since most everyone can see that new is almost never worse than old - when it comes to oil anyway.  It's a corollary to these questions that is more intersting. i.e. the question is more like "So what if oil changes are good or even better than not changing the oil?" 

What we are unsure of, is the extent to which oil changes make a difference to an engine's practical longevity, with the implication that we may have been misled into thinking the effect is substantive when it may not be.

[mystic_1]

Heh, ok I can admit that I've been in a bit of a troll mode this morning.  Sorry.



mystic_1

[martino1972]

i do change my oil,for the simple reason,that the clutch and tranny use the same oil,and it WILL get conteminated with metal particals and clutch debry that the filter dont pick up....and piston rings and crank/rod bearings dont like that...
newer honda race quad and dirt bikes have 2 different oil compartments,1 for the engine,1 for the tranny/clutch...they can go along time on engine oil before changing,but not on a single system..
and since cb's are a fairly high rpm engine,it WILL break down the additives in the oil due to heat,condence from short trips etc..
just my 2 cent's...

[eldar]

Jon, how are operating water cooled cycle engines much different than air cooled? Over all temp is the ONLY change. Filters are still the same. Transmissions are still the same. You still get the blow by gasses.
Tower is not talking about perfect world lab situations. Audi clearly is not used only in a lab. Has it ever occured that if honda wanted to bother checking things out again that their findings may be different?
how do you explain ofreen's bikes with high mileage when he changes about 4000 miles and only changes the filter twice? Or are you just choosing to forget that? he gets the high heat too, his bike d osee red line once in a while. In short, he rides like the rest of us do.

Are we saying to NOT do oil changes? No we are saying that people may be changing too often for absolutely no reason.
I suppose you will say that it is your bike an you will change when you want but I guess to me, having a better world for my kids is more important than changing oil more than I need to. After all, if the oil does not need to be changed, then the bike is not really benefiting from new oil. If your current oil is still good, new oil will not really do more for you.

[Deltarider]

Are we saying to NOT do oil changes? No we are saying that people may be changing too often for absolutely no reason.

+1

[scondon]

The question under debate is more than "Are oil changes good?"

   Started out as "is it necessarily better to change oil warm/hot(conventional wisdom)? cold changes appear to work better for me", or something like that. Train left the track so long ago, plowed through a small community, EMS came and cared for the survivors before whisking them away to surrounding hospitals, funerals were held, lawsuits were filed, and then people slowly began to get back to their daily lives.

Me? I just enjoy hanging out with the rest of my fellow "catastrophe" junkies, watching the weeds grow over the accident site while sippin' a few and debating how much better things would have been for everyone else if I had been driving that train

[eldar]

Yeah this from the guy that talks about wearin womens bikinis!

[bwaller]

Well done Sean, it's always good to have a colour commentator.  

[Gordon]

Are we saying to NOT do oil changes? No we are saying that people may be changing too often for absolutely no reason.
I suppose you will say that it is your bike an you will change when you want but I guess to me, having a better world for my kids is more important than changing oil more than I need to.

Just because you may not agree with my reasons doesn't mean they don't exist.  And now because I continue to change my oil more often than you may think I need to it means I don't care about the world I'm leaving for my kids?  Please... 

Either get off that high horse or stop driving fossil fuel powered vehicles.

[firecracker]

Either get off that high horse or stop driving fossil fuel powered vehicles.

You mean a high horse is a fossil fuel powered vehicle?



 

[754]

ofreens...4000 miles may be near the same as 800 miles around town..

intervals should be determined by hours, not miles.

 And to those who think oil need not be changed that often .. how high do you rev your bikes?? If you never take them near redline, you would not have to worry as much..

[eldar]

754, read what ofreen put on. He does do redline. He does not baby his bike. I think you are missing the whole gist here.

Gordon, are you one of those that figures since it is your money, it is your gas and you will burn all you want? THAT is what I am talking about. If your bike could get by without so many changes, then would you wait longer knowing your bike does not really benefit from frequent changes?

THAT is the basis here.

We all seem to agree a change should be done but it seems that in this day, it does not need to be so often as it used to. As for high horse, well Im not the only one now am I. I seem to recall someone named gordon doing it a few times too.

[754]

Edar, my first two paragraphs, had nothing to do with the last.

Taking a bike to redline is normal use, not doing that is less hard on the motor and produces less heat, unless you are lugging.

But back to the first 2 paragraphs..,
ofreen commutes.. during that he likely averages 45 MPH AVERAGE.. as do many commuters, but not if they ride thru congestion or inner city (pretty sure ofreen doesnt)..

However around town, your average is considerably LESS..

 For instance, going to the store. You warm up your bike for a minute or minute and half(0miles), then you ride on a surface street at under 40 miles an hour, stop at a few lights, idle into the parking lot at the Piggly Wiggly, then park..the process back is similar.. except the first 1/2 of the trip, bike is not fully warm.. So stop and go, stop & go.. end results..low MPH average.

Ofreen  or a touring rider can put on 1500 miles in less than 2 days or 30 hrs.. the around town and short hop rider can easily take 60 hrs or a lot more.

Once a bike is fully warmed up, the wear is considerably less, but warmed up on a SOHC means bringing the engine cases to running temp which includes clutch and tranny..

[Raul CB750K1]

I have run out of popcorn so I think this is a great moment to put this thread to rest. It started as "they say to warm the oil before changing it, but if I park my bike after the ride, wouldn't it drip down to the pan, to the point of making the oil warming unnecesary? Along with it, the are some other things that we do day by day without giving a second thought, when those things are unnecesary or wrong. That was all. I also have strong feelings that changing the oil is unnecessary, and that even in the case that the engine wears much more, probably the cost in money and time of oil changes exceed the cost of an engine rebuild. But obviously I won't test it in my own bike. Oil companies have set the oil price low enough that I rather buy and change it than live with the thought of my engine seizing. Set the oil price  to $100 a gallon and you will see service intervals magically extending in everybody's vehicle.

[eldar]

that is possible for some people I suppose.
I only have a couple miles in town and then about 15 on the freeway.

but I do not think hours are a good measurement either. Lets say that oil goes about 60 hours. Now I would do that fairly easy, not in a week for sure but it would not take all summer either. But what if the person barely rides 60 hours in 2 years?
the oil will still degrade some and throw the hour count off. I think that is why miles are used instead of hours.
I know with tractors and other such farm implements, runtime is done in hours and not miles but then the application is much different there.

I suppose my whole stance is that a person has to determine when they need to change oil but I also feel that almost everyone of us does it more often than needed.

As for redline, I do not do it too often. For me, redline in 2nd will almost break the speed limit on the interstates here and 3rd certainly will. I can break it in second if I want but that is WAY into redline. Our speed limit is 75 btw. I think it is 75 because out roads are so boring they want to get people through as fast as possible!
besides, while fun, I can wait till my kids are older and do not need me as much.

[Buber]

..... Set the oil price  to $100 a gallon and you will see service intervals magically extending in everybody's vehicle.

For me that's the major point. Theoretically we can argue ourselves till popcorn ends, and letters are not any more visible on the keyboard, but for me, the major factor is financial - Do I save more by changing oil every 2000 miles (which personally I think is ridicuolus - everybody who uses Rotella - this oil is designed to be changed at, what? 40.000miles?) or do I save more by changing it every 20.000 miles - including the repair factor.
Something tells me that there's ABSOLUTELY no harm, in doing couple of miles more per season, but, since I've deen driving in teh winter too, I've seen "coffe latte" in my engine, so I agree that oil should be changed in the spring. Unless you don't ride in the winter, ergo, no condensation, acids, etc occurs. then it shoudln't really matter.

But - this is just a "gut feeling" and totally private opinion.
I think that nobody can win, since no side can present verifiable scientific data for this or that option. There are lot of clues for this or that, but no lab test had been done (e.g. identical bikes which were ridden in the same way for 100.000 miles and then oil checked), so eventually it's for all of us to make the decision individually.

Actually I can't put more popcorn on, because they have only the microvawe variety in my shop, and I don't have a microwave... I will go for sunflower seeds instead, OK?

[crazypj]

One thing I had forgotten until the previous post.
My brother was at one time a branch manager for a delivery company.
 He worked out the costs of routine maintainance compared to re-manufactured engines.
Delivery vans usually get severe abuse so expect shorter than 'average life' 
It was actually cheaper to top up oil when needed then re-build or replace engines than to do all the routine maintainance.  Half of fleet got maintainance by the book,based on mileage, the other half got checked every six months (brakes,fluids etc, unless there was  problem earlier) All had daily inspections by driver, tyres, fluid levels, etc, about same as most people do bike before fiding
I doubt that many SOHC's on this forum get driven even close th how Honda intended, (redline is 'advisory', don't operate in red zone for 'extended periods  )
PJ

[Buber]

Interesting... One more chip for my thought about just riding, and not "overdoing" the maintenance thing.... Interesting.....