Author Topic: Riding in near freezing temps...  (Read 15936 times)

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Offline hapsh

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2008, 09:37:20 AM »
I commute all winter in sub freezing temps.  Only freezing rain and heavy snow stops me.  You would be surprised at how much grip tires have at below freezing temps.  You just have to ride for the conditions.  Just be watchful for ice, sand, and leaves in corners.  I take corners slower with less lean angle than in the summer.  Also I have found that the freeways and interstates are much more likely to be clear and safe as opposed to the side streets.  I have to take it easy on the secondary roads until I get to the freeway.  Once there the roads are usually clear of ice from all the traffic.  However, ice is your worst enemy, if you use too much front brake on an ice patch you will go down.  My general rule when deciding to ride each day is; ride if it is wet/dry and above freezing, or dry and  below freezing.  I tell myself I can always call a cab if it really gets bad. ;D
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2008, 05:50:57 PM »
Quote
I may just have to get used to riding with the visor up for a short bit.

Hey for $9.99 plus shipping go for it!  Besides it's november...you might just find one on the shelf at a local snowmobile shop and skip the shipping charge.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2008, 06:20:35 PM »
I have been riding daily to work as much as possible and I am going to continue to ride as long as it is relatively dry and / or up until it gets cold enough to snow / freeze.  Aside from the obvious (black ice, freezing rain, snow, etc), what factors should I be thinking about in the coming winter months? 

I'm looking for practical riding tips from the veteran winter riders... Also, how about preparing the bike for cold weather riding, any tips / tricks? 



#1. Stop the wind. If you don't have a full riding suit, get some insulated coveralls, or a 1-piece rainsuit. The difference between a 1-pice coverall and any 2-piece has to be experienced to be believed: I've ridden across an entire State in below-zero temps with insulated coveralls, long underwear, good, thick, winter gauntlet gloves, and bike boots (looser, let me wear 2 socks). While that's extreme, I still ride to work in similar temps with just gauntlet gloves and a 1-piece insulated coveralls.

#2. Change your 750's oil to 10w50, as 10w40 won't protect the cam.

#3. Use D7E or X22ES-U sparkplugs in the cold, and use lower octane gas, not premium or midgrade.

I'm working on some riding suit designs, one like this for cold weather. My goal: Hondaman's Daily Rider for $99, Cold Rider for $139. Not fancy, but they will work!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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charlevoix418

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2008, 07:43:46 PM »
Hello Hondaman,

as a northern rider, I just want to be sure to understand your advice:  I thought that the first 2 digits of an oil grade were indicating viscosity at low temp, i.e. 5W30 is better that 10W30 for cold climate and the last 2 digits were indicating viscosity at high temp, i.e. 20W50 could be better that 10W40 in hot weather.

Raynald

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2008, 08:48:04 PM »
It doesn't look that good, but I have a full size windshield on during the winter(PlexiFairing III).  This gets 70-80% of the wind off me.  I have a one piece winter suit(old Tucker brand name "Spartan"), and "Polar Hands", a handlebar mounted covering for my hands.  Because of the windshield, I can keep the shield on my helmet cracked so it doesn't fog.  Around town, I can have it open all the way.
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Offline kach_me

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2008, 03:49:49 AM »
Hapsh!  Who is that in your avatar!  All of a sudden I'm not that cold anymore.

 Maybe I could figure a way to have Hapsh's avatar play on a screen in front of my bike when riding...  8) nah... I'd crash!  but I'd be warm!  ::)
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 05:21:03 AM »
Hello Hondaman,

as a northern rider, I just want to be sure to understand your advice:  I thought that the first 2 digits of an oil grade were indicating viscosity at low temp, i.e. 5W30 is better that 10W30 for cold climate and the last 2 digits were indicating viscosity at high temp, i.e. 20W50 could be better that 10W40 in hot weather.

Raynald


That's the way many folks "look" at it, but it really works out this way: the first number is the weight of the base oil itself. The second number is the rated weight at 210 degrees, which is produced by adding various viscosity enhancers to the base oil. So, for example, 20w50 oil is a 20w oil with enhancers that make it act like a 50 weight oil would, at 210 degrees. 10w40 oil is a 10w oil, with enhancers that make it act as a 40 weight would at 210 degrees.

The problem with the enhancers, though, is that over time, they break down from the long polymer molecules that they are, to become shorter molecules, closer to the base weight of the oil. This causes the high temp action of the oil to become thinner at 210 degrees, and they begin to mix in clumps with the base weight oil, raising its viscosity, too. So, after say 1500 miles in a typical 750, the 20w50 oil begins to act like a 25w40 oil, for example.

Using lots of enhancers also reduces the lubricity of the oil itself, or else they could make 5w90 oil that would work for everything. The enhancers help bind things together, but they themselves are not great lube.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 08:08:15 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline moham

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 06:00:31 AM »
Because of the windshield, I can keep the shield on my helmet cracked so it doesn't fog.  Around town, I can have it open all the way.

That was the problem I had the other day when it was about thirty degrees out. I couldn't see crap but when I tried to ride with my shield up, my face went from cold to numb to pain in about twenty seconds.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2008, 06:08:31 AM »
Quote
Hey for $9.99 plus shipping go for it!  Besides it's november...you might just find one on the shelf at a local snowmobile shop and skip the shipping charge.

That was my thinking, I'll have to let everyone know how it works  ;D

Hondaman, I am using straight 10w castrol oil right now. I am getting ready to do an oil change. With the weather cooling down, should I be using a different oil in my 73 CB500? I am in Utah, so it can get kinda chilly in the winter. I'd hate to ruin my engine by using the wrong oil. Also, should I move from the D8EA plugs back to D7EA for the winter riding? I plan on riding all winter when the weather permits.

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2008, 10:17:47 AM »
Should work great as HJC designed the breath deflector to adapt the CL-15 for snomobile use,  an easy way to sell more helmets....someone got a bonus for that one I hope.

Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2008, 01:18:24 PM »
Quote
Should work great as HJC designed the breath deflector to adapt the CL-15 for snomobile use,  an easy way to sell more helmets....someone got a bonus for that one I hope.

Do companies even know what bonus's are?? I picked one up on the way home for 12.50 plus tax. I am planning on riding in tomorrow, so if it isn't snowing, I'll let you know. At 430am, it should be plenty cold to test it  ;)

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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charlevoix418

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2008, 02:12:33 PM »
Hondaman,

thank you for the info!  Based on that, I should use 10W30 when it is cold then switch to 10W40 or 20W50 when nice weather will be back, which should be around mid july in my area...

Raynald

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2008, 02:43:17 PM »
Because of the windshield, I can keep the shield on my helmet cracked so it doesn't fog.  Around town, I can have it open all the way.

That was the problem I had the other day when it was about thirty degrees out. I couldn't see crap but when I tried to ride with my shield up, my face went from cold to numb to pain in about twenty seconds.

There's a product called Cat Crap? I think you put on the inner shield surface. I think Jonesy may have been the one to post it. Perhaps he will chime in on its effectiveness.
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Offline moham

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2008, 03:24:52 PM »
Because of the windshield, I can keep the shield on my helmet cracked so it doesn't fog.  Around town, I can have it open all the way.

That was the problem I had the other day when it was about thirty degrees out. I couldn't see crap but when I tried to ride with my shield up, my face went from cold to numb to pain in about twenty seconds.

There's a product called Cat Crap? I think you put on the inner shield surface. I think Jonesy may have been the one to post it. Perhaps he will chime in on its effectiveness.

I figured there's got to be something for that, just didn't know what. This'll get me to look around now...
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Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2008, 03:36:39 PM »
#2. Change your 750's oil to 10w50, as 10w40 won't protect the cam.

would this explain my recent cam/cam chain chatter during the recent cold weather? i just did a recent tune-up while it was 60-70F, including an oil change with 10W-40 (and a dabble of Lucas Oil treatment). within two weeks to plummited to 30-40F and my bike seems to rattle at an annoyingly audible rate while it was fine at the warmer temps.

Offline Tower

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2008, 04:41:43 PM »
Its easy to misunderstand oil viscosity ratings, just as its easy to misunderstand everything else about motor oil.  Without sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist, one might say that this confusion plays right into oil makers' hands - but that's another post.

As Hondaman explains, multi-grade oils are designed with a thin base oil to which special polymers are added.  What he fails to mention is that these polymers thicken the oil as the oil gets hotter and only as the oil gets hotter.  In other words, at 20o the oil's viscosity is described by the first number (just as @charlevoix418 mentions) and at 210o the viscosity is described by the second number (As Hondaman mentions).  For temperatures in between, the oils viscosity is somewhere in between.

Q:If the polymers were not added, what would happen?  A:The oil's viscosity would steadily drop as the oil got hotter.  Unfortunately, this thinning is the opposite of what an engine needs as it operates under load at full temperature.  But, polymers fix that, e.g. an SAE30 oil is thicker at 20o then at 210o, but a 5W30 oil is thinner at 20o then at 210o, and is the same viscosity as the SAE30 oil at 210o. 

Another reason viscosity reversal is important - At start-up we want the oil to begin lubricating the parts as quickly as possible, and thinner oil does that.  If we tried using an SAE30 oil at start-up, it would be too slow to lubricate that all important camshaft.  If we tried using an SAE10 oil, it would be great at start-up, but then at operating temperatures would be too thin to work.  Polymers fix that too.

Also, as the temperature drops further, then even SAE10 oil would become too thick to quickly lube that camshaft at start-up, so we must use an even thinner oil - SAE5 or even SAE0. Hence, as the temperature drops, the need for a thinner oil at start-up increases, but the need for a thicker oil still depends on the stress and operating temperatures to which the engine is subjected. Hence multi-grade oils are perfect.

In other words the first number is for start-up at the coldest temperature, the second number is for running at the hottest temperature. i.e. your choice,
 0W-20 (way way cold at start and engine never really gets fully warmed up)
 5W-30 (cold start and regular operating temp, such as early spring or late fall)
10W-40 (cool temp start-up and regular temp operating - pretty much the normal range)
20W-50 (really hot days when engine might even overheat under normal operating conditions)

Multi-grade oil thickens only as temprature rises.  Clutch rattle, camshaft rattle, and all manner of sound are dampened less by thin oil than thick oil.  So, expect to hear more rattle in cold temperatures when using multi-grade oil.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 08:12:15 PM »
Quote
Hey for $9.99 plus shipping go for it!  Besides it's november...you might just find one on the shelf at a local snowmobile shop and skip the shipping charge.

That was my thinking, I'll have to let everyone know how it works  ;D

Hondaman, I am using straight 10w castrol oil right now. I am getting ready to do an oil change. With the weather cooling down, should I be using a different oil in my 73 CB500? I am in Utah, so it can get kinda chilly in the winter. I'd hate to ruin my engine by using the wrong oil. Also, should I move from the D8EA plugs back to D7EA for the winter riding? I plan on riding all winter when the weather permits.

Thanks,

Brandon

OOO...that straight 10w scares me!  :o Even Honda recommends 10w40 in the 500/550 in the Winter, 20w40 in the Spring/Fall, and 20w50 in the Summer. I ran Castrol 10w50 in mine and my brother's for many years, all year 'round.

The (stock) 500/550 should always run the D7E/X22ES-U plugs, except when on long hiway tours, where the X24ES-U is ideal, and the D8E is cooler yet. In the cold, with D8 plugs, they will likely foul and become hard to start in fairly short order.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2008, 06:48:38 AM »
Quote
OOO...that straight 10w scares me!   Even Honda recommends 10w40 in the 500/550 in the Winter

Umm, crap, looks like I misunderstood something. Um, quick oil change tonight to the 10w40, or maybe just do what you said you did and run the 10w50 all the time  :o  Good thing I haven't been able to ride much.

Quote
The (stock) 500/550 should always run the D7E/X22ES-U plugs, except when on long hiway tours, where the X24ES-U is ideal

The only mods on my engine are a UNI filter, and come spring when I can get some cash, a Hondaman ignition. Should I go ahead and get the D7E's ? Who makes the X22ES-U plugs?  I may get a couple sets and try them all.

Thanks,

Brandon
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Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2008, 01:16:38 PM »
 :D  ok, so it turns out I was running straight 30w oil, not 10w. Man was sweating it all day thinking I had royaly goofed something up. Went to the store and couldn't find 10w50 so I picked up 10w40.

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 01:31:00 PM »
Thank you Tower and Hondaman, that was very enlightening for not only me but for all of us. I personally didn't know all that science to oil viscosity's. I also am please to see that honda man use's-used castrol too, that is what I have lived by since I can remember. I always have used 10w40 in summer and 10w30 in winter for all my automobiles.
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Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 02:53:58 PM »
Quote
Q:If the polymers were not added, what would happen?  A:The oil's viscosity would steadily drop as the oil got hotter.  Unfortunately, this thinning is the opposite of what an engine needs as it operates under load at full temperature.  But, polymers fix that, e.g. an SAE30 oil is thicker at 20o then at 210o, but a 5W30 oil is thinner at 20o then at 210o, and is the same viscosity as the SAE30 oil at 210o. 

Another reason viscosity reversal is important - At start-up we want the oil to begin lubricating the parts as quickly as possible, and thinner oil does that.  If we tried using an SAE30 oil at start-up, it would be too slow to lubricate that all important camshaft.  If we tried using an SAE10 oil, it would be great at start-up, but then at operating temperatures would be too thin to work.  Polymers fix that too.

Also, as the temperature drops further, then even SAE10 oil would become too thick to quickly lube that camshaft at start-up, so we must use an even thinner oil - SAE5 or even SAE0. Hence, as the temperature drops, the need for a thinner oil at start-up increases, but the need for a thicker oil still depends on the stress and operating temperatures to which the engine is subjected. Hence multi-grade oils are perfect.

In other words the first number is for start-up at the coldest temperature, the second number is for running at the hottest temperature. i.e. your choice,
 0W-20 (way way cold at start and engine never really gets fully warmed up)
 5W-30 (cold start and regular operating temp, such as early spring or late fall)
10W-40 (cool temp start-up and regular temp operating - pretty much the normal range)
20W-50 (really hot days when engine might even overheat under normal operating conditions)

Multi-grade oil thickens only as temprature rises.  Clutch rattle, camshaft rattle, and all manner of sound are dampened less by thin oil than thick oil.  So, expect to hear more rattle in cold temperatures when using multi-grade oil.

So, with all this in mind, would a 5w-40 oil be a pretty good all around oil to run?

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

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1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

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Offline mark

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 03:17:51 PM »
..... Who makes the X22ES-U plugs?  ...

That's a Nippondenso number.

back to the original question......

the perfect garment for folks having thoughts about riding around in the cold......


heavy canvas..... extra-long sleeves.... cool logo.... lots of neat buckles and stuff.....







 ;D

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:38:08 PM by mark »
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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 03:24:28 PM »
 :D :D :D :D :D
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
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Offline manjisann

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 04:45:47 PM »
Quote
the perfect garment for folks having thoughts about riding around in the cold......


heavy canvas..... extra-long sleeves.... lots of neat buckles and stuff.....

HEY, I HAVE THAT JACKET!!! And it keeps me very warm on my rides  ;D

Quote
Clutch rattle, camshaft rattle, and all manner of sound are dampened less by thin oil than thick oil.  So, expect to hear more rattle in cold temperatures when using multi-grade oil.

+1 I just changed my oil from a straight 30w to 10w40 and there is a ton more rattle in the cam chain. I haven't ridden her yet, just checked for leaks. I am glad I read this, otherwise I would be getting an ulcer right now from worry. Since the oil acts thicker as it gets hotter, is it safe to assume some of the noise will be dampened when the bike warms to running temp?

Thanks,

Brandon
Sure it's for sale! How much you ask?? Well, how much are you willing to pay??? Now triple it, that's the price!

1973 CB500 K2 - Sold the bike and bought a Mig, Miss the bike, Love the Mig :D
1980 CB650 Custom
1971 CB500 Frame 650 engine: Project

Trip and General Ramblings blog: manjisann.blogspot.com

Offline Tower

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Re: Riding in near freezing temps...
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 05:06:54 PM »
I'm afraid Hondaman misled everyone when he mentioned 5W-90 as a possible target oil.  That would NOT be a very good oil for our Hondas.  Such a broad multi-grade oil would be disastrous for our bikes under almost all conditions.  It would be too thin to be useful in summer and would be too thick at full temperature causing oil pressure problems.

The oil you run should always be tailored to the environment you find yourself in.  Just as dust effects oil changes, temperature effects viscosity selection.

Pick a season and the oil for that season:

e.g.1. early spring or late fall or early winter
If you plan to start your bike when there is frost on the fender, then a 5w oil is appropriate if its subzero and icicles are hanging off your nose, the 0W is best, -and-
If you run your bike almost but not quite up to full operating temperature (because the ambient air temp cools your motor too quickly) then a 20 or 30 weight viscosity is max.
Hence OW-20 (Arctic cold), 5W-20 (winter) 5W-30 (cool fall weather), OW-30 (Not available or very rare).
Probably 5W-30 would be OK

e.g.2. late spring to early fall (this is most of our normal riding season)
10W-30 (Canadian summers), 10W-40 (Carolina summers)


e.g.3. Midsummer Arizona nights and Arizona days
You are starting up with sweat beeding on your forehead (if you can sweat in Arizona), so you need an oil that is thin at that temperature i.e. 20W
At full operating temperature and speed, the bike is ready to overheat, so SAE50 would help.
If you used 20W-40 that might work, but then again it might not, so be safer with 20W-50 in the dessert.  Indeed a single grade SAE40 might work also, as the operating temp range would be quite small.   If you had 5W-50 (if you could get it, that is) the thin oil would cause excessive wear at start, making it a bad choice.  10W-40 would be a weak choice at both ends of the spectrum.
Hence 20W-40 or 20W-50 is quite appropriate.

Note:0W-30 is not the same as SAE30.  One is multigrade and the other is single grade.  One reverses the viscosity with temperature, the other does not.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 05:10:09 PM by Tower »