Topic: fighting post-electrolytic in-tank flash rust

[crowned]

Hey everyone-- i experimented with electrolytic rust removal in my gas tank, but when i was finished, i fogged lots of wd-40 in there, then washed out all the green gunk with acetone, and then sprayed in more wd-40, then washed everything out with water, and sprayed in more wd-40.

it looks pretty good.  can i just run it with the petcock filter?  there are some very small (.3mm) gashes in it, but they don't look major.    will it be okay if i just use the mail fuel and not the reserve?  I hope so-- i gotta get this thing back on the road.

also, any tips for cleaning out the sodium carbonate  solution residue once the rust removal is completed?

[HondaMan]

If you're still having residue problems, maybe try a POR15 kit? They're available online. It coats the entire interior, premanently.

[MoTo-BunnY]

I would throw in some ATF (auto trans fluid) thinned with a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil or naphtha in there to prevent flash rust. WD-40 is a pretty lousy rust preventative, from what I have found. Even a bit of motor oil would work better at rust prevention.

There are also several metal preps found at Home Despot, etc. that you could do a quick rinse of the tank with, that leave a light zinc phospate coating on the metal to help prevent rust. You will still want to put a bit of light oil in there though - as long as it's a type that will burn OK once you fill with gas and run the bike. I found ATF to be the best rust prevention choice, from my experimenting, though.

[charlevoix418]

How about adding a bit of 2 stroke oil in the gas tank (during winterizing process only).

Raynald

[MoTo-BunnY]

I use about an ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil in the tank, at every fill up, to prevent rust during the rainy season here in Oregon. I lean it back some in the summer.

I tried straight Marvel in my extra empty tanks, as a rust preventative, but they still flash rusted a little bit. Then I did the metal etch clean, rinsed it with baking soda/water (to neutralize the acid) then several rinses of alcohol solvent (for water removal). Then I coated with the aforementioned ATF thinned with Marvel, and they both have been fine now for over a year, with no rust.   

[TwoTired]

If you are flushing with water, it leaves water residue and a humid environment inside the tank.  Water, oxygen, and iron(in the steel) combine to form rust (iron oxide).

To prevent rust, eliminate one of the ingredients.

After a water flush, rinse the tank with alcohol, alcohol absorbs water, taking it out when drained.  Alcohol vapor also sucks water from the humidity in the air.  Then fog with WD 40, and either ventilate with DRY air, or use some desicant to keep the water from the iron.

Cheers,

[MoTo-BunnY]

Yeah, like I said, the alcohol works great for the water removal as it will blend with the water (unlike oils and such) and "pulls" it out when you dump the alcohol. I used denatured alcohol solvent found at any Home Despot.

However, I strongly disagree with the WD40 part as I find that stuff very overrated - it has its place as Stoddard solvent for cleaning and what not, but I have been VERY discouraged by its so-called anti rust properties and found other things (like ATF) that cling better, last longer, and work FAR better at rust prevention.

I remember many years ago, in some magazine my dad had, they did an extensive anti-rust test using nails suspended in salt water for weeks and the WD40 did HORRIBLY. ATF, motor oil, and I think even Vaseline, did MUCH better than WD40 for rust prevention. The best of the best was "cosmoline" - some weird super-vaseline for military use of weapon storage.

Also, I know there are aerosol "fogging oils" available that are made specifically for "fogging" the inside of combustion chambers on vehicles, for long term storage, that I bet would potentially work real good inside of a gas tank, too. (though I have yet to try it)

[TwoTired]

If you are going to flush your tank with water and are not going to immediately put a coating on the internal surfaces, you need to get the water away from the steel.
This is the perfect job for water displacing oil.  Gunsmiths have used this oil for decades for stopping the rust process on steel (bluing), after removal form the salt bath and rinsing with hot water.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1086&title=WATER%20DISPLACING%20OIL%20

WD-40 contains a water displacing oil.  It also has solvents blended in it to make it useful for a wide variety of other uses, as well as allowing it to easily reach into small crevases that a more viscous fluid takes far longer to reach into.
WD40 is widely distributed, making it fairly easy to find.

Unless you use a pretty heavy fog and take steps to remove the water, you can't expect full internal coverage of the actual WD oil content, as WD-40 is diluted with carrier solvents.
If used in the correct way it is effective.

In some regards it is like painting, if you thin paint too much before application, the resulting thickness layer is so thin that it does not make a good protective layer.

If you still have half a cup of water in your tank, a fog of WD-40 won't give you protection either.

I've not found the relevant material properties for ATF with regard to water displacement.  I know that water can be suspended in it to form and emulsion, with some agitation.  Afterwards water will separate and the oil will float on top of the water.  Whether ATF will form a cohesive coating over the metal and still isolate the water from the metal surface, I do not know.  If it weren't for the fact that extra oxygen can be suspended in water, I wouldn't worry about ATF as a layer of this material would otherwise block oxygen from reaching the metal surface.

I expect the successful use of ATF instead of true water displacing oil is going to depend on how well water has been removed from the container to be protected.

Cheers,

[KingCustomCycles.com]

"relevant material properties for ATF" wow. "cohesive coating" is that sticky?

[TwoTired]

"cohesive coating" is that sticky?

No, professor.  "Sticky" would usually be an adhesive property, though there is some relevance to ccohesion.  A cohesive coating would be the ability of a substance to hold a film covering.  Although, hopefully ATF has better adhesive properties to the steel than water does.  Pretty sure water displacing oil does.

My, admittedly old school, teachers often reminded us about reference books such as a common dictionary for words we didn't understand.  Today such things are available fairly easily over the web.  Such as found with Google:

Adhesion: 
the molecular attraction exerted between the surfaces of bodies in contact
Or:
The force of attraction that causes two different substances to join. Adhesion causes water to spread out over glass.

Cohesion:
The force of attraction that holds molecules of a given substance together. It is strongest in solids, less strong in liquids, and least strong in gases. Cohesion of molecules causes drops to form in liquids (as when liquid mercury is poured on a piece of glass), and causes condensing water vapor to form the droplets that make clouds.

[MoTo-BunnY]

I can see WD-40 as a helpful water displacer (thanks for clarifying) - what I was just saying is that it isn't very good at rust prevention - especially long term. I just hear SO many people go on and on about WD40 being so wonderful for a lot of things that I know it isn't (like lubrication or rust prevention - not saying you did) and didn't want folks to think just WD40 alone is going to prevent the rust.

Also, I stressed in both of my other posts, the importance of using the alcohol solvent to remove the water. When I did my tanks, after the water/baking soda acid neutralizing step, I rinsed with alcohol and then naphtha probably like 6-8 times to make real sure no water was left behind. Also, that "Prep-n-Etch" stuff I mentioned, leaves a nice dull grey zinc phosphate finish on the metal that also helps prevent rust, big time. From their product blurb: "Use to remove rust from iron and steel surfaces. Treats metal surfaces, including galvanized and aluminum, to allow better paint adhesion. Helps insure good paint adhesion. Inhibits flash rusting."

The ATF is what I am recommending as the final coating, for either long term storage or until you get it on the bike and full of gas, as it provides a nice and thick, long lasting oily coat on the bare metal, to prevent rust - it's real "clingy" or whatever. (not scientific term. . .lol) From the previous Wiki link: "Most ATFs contain some combination of rust preventatives, anti-foam additives, detergents, dispersants, anti-wear additives, anti-oxidation compounds, surfactants, cold-flow improvers, high-temperature thickeners, gasket conditioners, and petroleum dye."  If you do a quick "google" on ATF and firearms (and no, not the gov't ATF!), you will see it also if favored by many for an all around gun oil. (apparently it is what replaced whale oil, too!)

My tanks turned out so well that I ended up doing two different friends' tanks, too. I'm eventually going to make something like a "spit" that I can turn the tank on to agitate the mixture inside, for future jobs. (without killing my little stick arms shaking the heck out of the tank, over and over. . . lol)


Really sounds like we are more or less saying the same thing, just with different products and technique?   

[eldar]

Funny, in the winter it can be very damp around here, shown by the fact I have water scale on my engine. Thing is, I fog with wd-40 and have NO rust. Apparently it DOES work but application technique is important. Of course it is for 1 season only but then if the bike is for riding, why would it be stored for more than 1 season!

Anyways, for the best results, por15 is what you want. Nothing will do a better job from what I have seen.

[MoTo-BunnY]

Funny, in the winter it can be very damp around here, shown by the fact I have water scale on my engine. Thing is, I fog with wd-40 and have NO rust. Apparently it DOES work but application technique is important. Of course it is for 1 season only but then if the bike is for riding, why would it be stored for more than 1 season!

Anyways, for the best results, por15 is what you want. Nothing will do a better job from what I have seen.

Yes, but the exposed metal on your engine, you are referring to, is either aluminum or steel that has already been zinc plated by the factory, as well, correct? Seems like that would also help to prevent rust? And yeah, it gets pretty wet in Oregon here, too (looks out window at rain coming down)

Also, POR-15 would be a multiple step, permanent tank liner treatment - I was under the assumption 'crowned' was only after something to prevent flash rust after already having used the electrolysis process for rust removal, prior to filling it with gas? (and boy, will that fresh steel rust again fast - like in minutes - "flash" is right!)

[Mekun]

I used por-15. I think i remember that its bonds over flash rust and prevents its from going any father than that. For rust to grow it needs o2 which por-15 prevents. If por 15 gets on anything you dont want it on and it hardens forget about getting it off.

[TwoTired]

Really sounds like we are more or less saying the same thing, just with different products and technique?   

I agree.  I especially think the zinc phosphate coating works very well.

Cheers,

[KingCustomCycles.com]

Toilet bowl cleaner and ATF with acetone or MEK, not fancy but with same results.  Cheap, easy, no shipping $$

[eldar]

Yes, but the exposed metal on your engine, you are referring to, is either aluminum or steel that has already been zinc plated by the factory, as well, correct? Seems like that would also help to prevent rust?

There is a clear coat but most of it has peeled off. Aluminum does not rust though. My point was more that during the winter, even though it averages about 10 degrees F during the winter, condensation still forms on the engine and any exposed metal. I have used wd-40 to protect against this and it has never failed.

[charlevoix418]

1.  Does ATF mean Automatic transmission Fluid???

2.  My fuel tank is not that much rusted, I do not plan to start a special coating process, I just want to fill the tank to the cap with premium grade gas (BTW does premium grade degrade less over time than low octane gas?) and put some kind of oil that will mix with gas for rust protection, I also plan to add StaBil.

3.  Then my clarification questions!

a)  A CB350F has a capacity of about 3.7 US gallons, reserve included:  how much ATF should I pour in?

b)  Should I run the bike for a while to be sure oil will go everywhere in the fuel system, including maybe inside mufflers?

Raynald

[MoTo-BunnY]

1.  Does ATF mean Automatic transmission Fluid??? 

2.  My fuel tank is not that much rusted, I do not plan to start a special coating process, I just want to fill the tank to the cap with premium grade gas (BTW does premium grade degrade less over time than low octane gas?) and put some kind of oil that will mix with gas for rust protection, I also plan to add StaBil.

3.  Then my clarification questions!

a)  A CB350F has a capacity of about 3.7 US gallons, reserve included:  how much ATF should I pour in?

b)  Should I run the bike for a while to be sure oil will go everywhere in the fuel system, including maybe inside mufflers?

Raynald

1.   Yes

2.   I would probably use Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam, as far as stuff directly into the gas, in the tank, to prevent rust. Stabil too, would kinda be overkill unless it's going to sit for a long time (Stabil is more to keep the gas from going "stale" or whatever). I don't know if higher octane degrades slower than lower octane? Probably doesn't make much difference?

3a.   The ATF I was referring to, was more in reply to the original question in this thread, for a coating on the bare metal inside the tank (after he did the electrolysis de-rusting) to prevent flash rust before he puts the tank back on the bike and fills it with gas. The ATF would then just wash off and burn fine, too. (why it makes a great bare steel coating, in the tank - prevents rust and burns fine when you eventually put the gas in). I'm sure you could put some in the gas to prevent rust in the tank, too, but like I said, most folks seem to swear by Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam for that purpose.

3b.   Marvel or Seafoam mixes easily with gas, putting either in regularly in your tank gets it throughout your system easily (including the mufflers). If you haven't ever put either in before and are planning to store the bike, then running it for a bit would probably be a good idea (and then doing the necessary storage stuff like draining the float bowls, etc.)

[MoTo-BunnY]

Toilet bowl cleaner and ATF with acetone or MEK, not fancy but with same results.  Cheap, easy, no shipping $$

lol. .. there ya go, same kind of approach at cleaning the tank, just with different products.

I love how inventive SOHC4 owners are! . . .. lol.   

[T_The_Pirate]

I know this is an old thread...But Moto_Bunny, you are the QUEEN of my heart today!!!  I de-rusted the tank on my 550 using the "works" toilet bowl cleaner, a fresh water rinse then used 91% iso alcohol as a rinse then a mix of ATF and Marvel to coat it and it looks beautiful inside with no flash rust!! thanks for the advice!   

[JAW911]

This has been a brilliant thread. Just one question......what is the ratio of ATF to Marvel please? Thank you for all the rest of the info. Just about to hit my tank (not literally!)

[Ozzybud]

Don't use 91% alcohol to flush as it is 9%water. I used Evaporust to clean the inside and then flushed a few times with clean diesel. The Evaporust is water based and when flushing  with diesel the water settles at the bottom so don't pour it all in on the subsequent flushes. The diesel  will prevent flash rusting  keep the tank full in the winter and don't use Ethanol infused fuel.

[Nurse Julie]

Only use de ionised water to flush tank out, then swill round with diesel. When ready, just fill with petrol.

[Kelly E]

Skip the water rinse and go straight to a diesel rinse.
I pour in a half gallon of diesel and shake the hell out of it. Dump the diesel into a clear plastic milk jug and let the sludge settle. Pour the diesel back in but leave the sludge in the jug and dump it. Do this several times and if the tank is going to sit pour in an ounce of 2 stroke oil and swirl it until the tank is coated and pour out the excess. That will prevent rust until you are ready to use it. The 2 stroke oil won't hurt anything when you fill it up with gas and start using it.

[pjlogue]

When I vapor blast steel parts I use distilled water to rinse them off after blasting.  I have used the distilled water as a quick rinse after de-rusting fuel tanks as well.  The reason being is the distilled water has no minerals or salt in it.  Once rinsed with distilled water I use isopropyl alcohol (98%) and dry with warm air.  Seams in tanks can be tricky as any chemicals you derust with (or electrolytes you use with electrolysis) will seep in there.  To leach these out of seams I would use freshly boiled (and cooled a bit) distilled water and fill to the brim, seal with saran wrap and rubber band to keep air from dissolving into the water and let it soak for a couple of hrs.  The boiling of the distilled water will remove oxygen from the water (and any other gasses)  This should prevent rusting inside the tank wile it soaks.

-P.

[newday777]

This has been a brilliant thread. Just one question......what is the ratio of ATF to Marvel please? Thank you for all the rest of the info. Just about to hit my tank (not literally!)

Welcome aboard the forum JAW911 from across the pond in New Hampshire.

What is it you are going to use the ATF and Marvel Mystery Oil for? (This thread is an old long thread with many things added and I don't have the time to read through it all)
Explain the plan you are about to do.

Go to the new members section and introduce yourself and your bike there.