Author Topic: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's  (Read 1564 times)

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Offline JLeather

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Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« on: April 27, 2009, 06:22:45 PM »
Gave the old gold bagger a complete tuneup this last weekend.  Adjusted the cam chain and valves, cleaned the points, did the timing, removed and cleaned the carbs and re-jetted them for the new pipes (not really new, but new to this bike), etc, etc.  It was really nice weather last weekend so I went on a good long ride with TurboGrimace on Saturday and then another on Sunday.  Anyway, a couple issues cropped up (don't they always).  For starters, oil pressure.  I've got a gauge and the idiot light.  Cold pressures are about 35-40 at idle and 75+ at cruising.  Hot oil pressure is around 18-22 at idle and a good solid 60+ at cruising.  Now, ordinarily I'd be fine with 18 pounds of pressure at idle, but it makes the idiot light on the gauge flicker.  Is that too low?  Idle is set at about 1100, BTW.  It's a '71 engine, never rebuilt and atleast 30,000 miles on it (probably more, it's been through a couple speedos).  Should I be concerned about anything?  Is there a bypass spring in the pump I can shim to get the pressure a little higher?

Secondly, the bike will occasionally (maybe once every 10 minutes) and randomly spit back through the carbs.  Just once, and sporadically.  Seems to generally be when I cruising at a constant speed.  The settings feel pretty good on the bike.  It doesn't bog, and it doesn't buck and sputter.  Transitions from idle to WOT are relatively smooth, etc.  What's up with this backfire?  And I've never had one, even one jetted noticeably lean, spit back so loudly through the carbs.  It never pops through the pipes, just a really loud cough once in a while from one of the carbs.

Offline JLeather

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 04:32:24 AM »
Bump.  Anyone got an oil pressure gauge on their 750?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 06:37:26 AM »
Gave the old gold bagger a complete tuneup this last weekend.  Adjusted the cam chain and valves, cleaned the points, did the timing, removed and cleaned the carbs and re-jetted them for the new pipes (not really new, but new to this bike), etc, etc.  It was really nice weather last weekend so I went on a good long ride with TurboGrimace on Saturday and then another on Sunday.  Anyway, a couple issues cropped up (don't they always).  For starters, oil pressure.  I've got a gauge and the idiot light.  Cold pressures are about 35-40 at idle and 75+ at cruising.  Hot oil pressure is around 18-22 at idle and a good solid 60+ at cruising.  Now, ordinarily I'd be fine with 18 pounds of pressure at idle, but it makes the idiot light on the gauge flicker.  Is that too low?  Idle is set at about 1100, BTW.  It's a '71 engine, never rebuilt and atleast 30,000 miles on it (probably more, it's been through a couple speedos).  Should I be concerned about anything?  Is there a bypass spring in the pump I can shim to get the pressure a little higher?

Secondly, the bike will occasionally (maybe once every 10 minutes) and randomly spit back through the carbs.  Just once, and sporadically.  Seems to generally be when I cruising at a constant speed.  The settings feel pretty good on the bike.  It doesn't bog, and it doesn't buck and sputter.  Transitions from idle to WOT are relatively smooth, etc.  What's up with this backfire?  And I've never had one, even one jetted noticeably lean, spit back so loudly through the carbs.  It never pops through the pipes, just a really loud cough once in a while from one of the carbs.

Well, here's the skinny on the oil pressure part:
First the running numbers are good. The idle numbers are on the margin, but there's a couple of things that you might need to know:
1. Honda stated in their owner's manual until the K5 that "occasional oil light flicker when the engine is hot at idle is normal". This was due on the earlier bikes to a low-hysteresis oil pressure switch: it opens (light OFF) at 45 PSI, then closes when the pressure hits 25 PSI. After the K5, they added more hysteresis, with it going OFF at 50 PSI and back ON at 15 PSI. Normal hot run PSI with 10w40 is 55-60 at 4000 RPM, with 20w50 it will be 65-75. Idle is around 20 hot.
2. Use of at least 15w base oil (like 15w40 or 15w50) is highly desirable. 10w base oils are pretty thin for these engines. In commuting work, I use 15w50 (wintertime, 10w50), summer either 20w50 or synth 15w50. (No, this is not an oil thread...  :o ).
3. If the engine has been sitting a long time, the seal on the oil pump shaft may have cracked, dropping the pressure about 10 PSI overall. This seal is not listed for the CB750, but the same one is used on the GL1000 Gold Wing, and is available from Honda for that bike (in that oil pump - it looked like they started with the 750's oil pump parts in those engines!). While you're in the pump, replace the O-rings that seal the pump pan: on some K1 engines, Honda forgot to put the dowels in those pump pans, and the O-rings suffer leakage as a result. So, if yours is missing a dowel or two, get some. It can lose another 10 PSI when hot, from that issue. There are also 46x2mm O-rings around the inside of the cover.

Spitback: check for tight intake valve lash, if it's been sitting. One cylinder at .001" or less intake will do that. Also, it might have a bit of rust on the valve stem if that valve sat open a long time, so try some Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas for a couple of tanks (sorry, it will smoke a bit then) to dissolve that rust away and let the valve fully close. Or, take the carbs off, turn the engine until each valve opens, reach in with the dull side of an X-Acto knife blade, and scrape the upper edge of that crust away at the valve stem...

Other spitback: are all air screws set the same? One set lean will do this, too.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 06:40:37 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline JLeather

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 09:23:19 AM »
Thanks HM.  Very insightful as usual.  To clarify a few things:

I always run Castrol 20w-50 in my CB750's since I'm generally a warm-weather rider.

It is an early K1 (engine 66XXX) so it could have that issue with the dowels.  Also, it did dit for atleast 8 years or so before I revived it last spring so there could be some issues with a hanging valve, although it didn't do this to me before.  I've never been in the engine, but someone did a topend at one point because it's got a 392 head now.

I just did the valves at .002" and .003" using the go-nogo method so they oughta be alright unless I screwed up.  I'll check 'em again.

I also just did the carbs again (although they're only bench-synched since I haven't been over to my buddy's with the gauges).  The air screws are all at about 1 1/2 and they're all the same.  Also, they're not the ported ones.

I think I'll give the MM Oil a go and see if it helps.  I don't mind the smoke for a tank or two.  As for the pump, I'll keep an eye on it via the gauge but as long as 18 pounds at hot idle is ok I'm not going to take the pump off until next winter.  Too much riding to be done and not enough time to do it in.  I'll print this post for reference so I know what to look for when I finally get time for it.

I assume I can get the pump off in a stock frame without pulling the engine, right?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 09:06:07 PM »

  The air screws are all at about 1 1/2 and they're all the same.  Also, they're not the ported ones.

I assume I can get the pump off in a stock frame without pulling the engine, right?

The air screws: try them at 1 turn, which is stock for K0-K6.
Yep, the pump will come out OK in the frame.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline JLeather

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 06:57:14 AM »
Yeah, I started at 1-turn out but the plugs would load up at idle (too rich).  Yes, they're stock idle jets BTW.  Carbs are the early 7A carbs.  They're supposed to have 120 mains, but with my exhaust I'm actually at 115's and middle-needle clip.  I'd like to get a set of 112.5 mains cause it's still a little fat on WOT, and then richen the needles one mroe clip, but she's pretty close.  Transitions all the wat from idle to WOT are mostly smooth.  The spitting occurs around ~1/8 to 1/4 throttle, and only when cruising not when the engine's bogged.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 08:57:45 AM »
Yeah, I started at 1-turn out but the plugs would load up at idle (too rich).  Yes, they're stock idle jets BTW.  Carbs are the early 7A carbs.  They're supposed to have 120 mains, but with my exhaust I'm actually at 115's and middle-needle clip.  I'd like to get a set of 112.5 mains cause it's still a little fat on WOT, and then richen the needles one mroe clip, but she's pretty close.  Transitions all the wat from idle to WOT are mostly smooth.  The spitting occurs around ~1/8 to 1/4 throttle, and only when cruising not when the engine's bogged.

That throttle range definitely pegs it in the air screw's range, then.
The 1 turn-out spot is a 12.5:1 mix ratio (presuming new-ish air screws and seats). At 7/8 of a turn, it is 14:1 air:fuel (leaner), and at 1.25 turns it is almost 10:1 (richer). This air jet circuit is an air LIFTER circuit, much like in a Holley auto carb, so in is lean, out is rich. After 1.25 turns, there is no significant ratio change. It's sort of touchy: polish the air screws' tips carefully with some 800-1000 grit paper, and make sure the passage in the end of the tapered tip is fully clear (and the passthru hole), because a tiny amount of crud really disturbs the performance in this system. The screws tend to build up inside these passages over time: I clean mine regularly. (And my customer's bikes got this treatment, one of my "secrets" back then.  :D )
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:04:50 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline JLeather

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 11:17:35 AM »
Wait, so in is leaner?  But the spitting would be a lean condition, wouldn't it?  And I opened it more than 1-turn (apparently way rich).  How does the ported air screw work then?  I thought that the idle screws were an air-bleed;  i.e. opening the screw lets more air in and leans it out, cranking it down means less air and richer.  I thought they ported the later idle screws so even if you tried to crank it down too far (richer in my mind) the port would let air in and lean it back out.

How would the ported screw keep you from richening the idle mixture too much if turning it out makes it richer?  I'm missing something here.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pressure and backfiring Q's
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 09:23:45 PM »
Wait, so in is leaner?  But the spitting would be a lean condition, wouldn't it?  And I opened it more than 1-turn (apparently way rich).  How does the ported air screw work then?  I thought that the idle screws were an air-bleed;  i.e. opening the screw lets more air in and leans it out, cranking it down means less air and richer.  I thought they ported the later idle screws so even if you tried to crank it down too far (richer in my mind) the port would let air in and lean it back out.

How would the ported screw keep you from richening the idle mixture too much if turning it out makes it richer?  I'm missing something here.

The air screws here are a venturi controlling device: the faster the air hits the pilot jet's column, the more fuel it lifts to the slide's tip. This is the one difference between these carbs and, say, the Mikunis of the same era, which used this same screw to limit the fuel to the jet.

So, opening the screw for more air causes more velocity into the idle jet, lifting more fuel. This is probably why more confusion exists over the 750 carbs than any others of their generation. There is a spearate, non-adjustable, "air bleed" to the mainjet's column, but it is quite tall and mostly acts as an aerator. It also enters at the top of that column, killing most of the lifting tendency, while the idle side is slightly different.

In the "F" carbs, it's more normal...if you work on those, don't let it confuse you..  ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).