Author Topic: Looking for a petro chemist  (Read 2107 times)

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Looking for a petro chemist
« on: November 18, 2005, 04:14:11 AM »
Just curious, how does fuel stablizer work? What exactly does it do to fuel that stabilizes it? Does it affect the burn rate/flash point?
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 04:42:48 AM »
k,ill play chemist here.stabilizer adds certain molecules to the gas so it doesnt break down as fast when it sits.i reckon it also adds cleaners of some type to keep the fuel tank and carbs clean too.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 04:43:31 AM »
Damn good question that, I think it just stabilises the cash outflow
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Offline csendker

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 05:05:16 AM »
Can't answer for the chemistry, but here's what Chevron has to say about long-term storage of gas:

http://http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/longterm_gasoline/storage.shtml

"Three precautions will delay the deterioration of gasoline:

1. Fill containers about 95% full.
2. Cap containers tightly.
3. Store containers out of direct sunlight in a location where the temperature stays below 80°F most of the time (a vehicle or piece of equipment with gasoline in the fuel tank may be stored in direct sunlight as long as the tank is shaded from the sun).

The first two actions reduce the evaporation of gasoline during storage and reduce the exposure of gasoline to air and water vapor. (See Background Information section.) The 5% air space allows room for the liquid gasoline to expand if its temperature rises.

If weather or storage conditions will keep the gasoline warmer than 80°F much of the time, add a fuel stabilizer additive to the gasoline. Fuel stabilizer additives are available at auto supply stores and some service stations and convenience stores. Follow the label directions. The best mixing is achieved when the stabilizer is added to the container before it is filled with gasoline. The stabilizer will work only if it is added to fresh gasoline; it can’t fix gasoline that has started to deteriorate.

Federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasoline.

Adding oil to gasoline doesn’t change its stability. Gasoline-oil mixtures for two-stroke-cycle engines will survive storage as well as gasoline itself.

Note: The volatility of gasoline is tailored for the range of temperatures expected in the locality where it is sold. Engines fueled with "summer gasoline" may be more difficult to start in cold weather. (See Volatility section.)"

I bet the other major manufacturers say similar things.
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Offline csendker

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 05:13:09 AM »
And as for the chemistry, it looks like stabilizers slow the formation of 'gum':

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/longterm_gasoline/background-info.shtml

"Oxidation

Except for any added oxygenates, gasoline is made up almost entirely of hydrocarbons–molecules constructed from the building blocks of elemental carbon and hydrogen. Hydrocarbons, as a class, are chemically stable molecules.

However, there are types of hydrocarbons (olefins and diolefins) that can combine slowly with the oxygen in the air ("oxidize") at ambient temperatures. The products of the reaction are larger molecules, collectively called "gum."

The gum-forming reactions become faster as the temperature of the gasoline increases. This is why this bulletin recommends controlling the temperature of stored gasoline.

Most gasolines contain negligible amounts of gum when they are manufactured, and most contain special chemicals ("stabilizers") to retard gum formation. It is the stabilizers that make it possible to store Chevron gasolines for a year when the conditions are good.


Soluble Gum

The gum formed by oxidation is usually soluble in gasoline. However, it remains behind as a sticky residue when the gasoline evaporates. Since gasoline begins to evaporate in the carburetor of a carbureted engine or in the injector of a fuel-injected engine, a gasoline containing soluble gum may leave a deposit on these parts and on the intake valves. These deposits will be in addition to the deposits normally formed by a gum-free gasoline — a formation triggered by the elevated engine temperatures.

Modern engines are designed to run best when vital engine parts are clean. Carburetor and fuel injector deposits can cause hesitation and stumbling on acceleration, lower fuel economy, lower power output, and higher emissions of hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Excessive intake valve deposits can cause many of the same performance problems, plus higher emissions of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen oxides.

Because the Federal Environmental Protection Agency recognizes that fuel system deposits increase emissions, they require all gasolines to contain a deposit-control additive. All deposit-control additives keep deposits from forming; the best ones clean up deposits formed by lower-quality gasolines.

If the gasoline contains a lot of soluble gum, the normal level of deposit-control additive may not be sufficient. This is why Chevron recommends treating a tank of gasoline with an extra dose of deposit-control additive if a vehicle displays driveability problems after being stored. (Note: Chevron does not recommend adding a deposit-control additive to the fuel for a two-stroke-cycle engine.) The gum-forming reactions become faster as the temperature of the gasoline increases.

Insoluble Gum

Severe oxidation of gasoline may produce insoluble, as well as soluble, gum. The insoluble gum will take the form of brown or black particles which float in the gasoline or settle to the bottom of the container.

When an engine is fueled with gasoline containing insoluble gum, the fuel filter will remove the gum. If the engine has an in-tank fuel pump, the screen on the pump's feed also may capture some of the gum. However, these devices can become plugged if the gasoline contains too much insoluble gum. This will cause the engine to lose power or stall because it is starved for fuel. Adding a deposit-control additive will not keep insoluble gum from plugging filters and screens.

Other Issues

Storage, including storage involving gum formation, does not change the bulk properties and most of the performance characteristics of gasoline (excluding the characteristics affected by the gum itself). For example, storage does not change a gasoline's anti-knock index (octane) or energy content. However, these properties will change if the storage is accompanied by evaporative loss. The evaporation of light ends decreases a gasoline's antiknock index and increases its energy content.

Federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasolines. The regulations require reformulated gasolines to have less light ends and less olefins (federal, later; California, now) than conventional gasolines. As explained above, it is the oxidation of olefins that leads to gum formation. Reformulated gasolines also contain oxygenates. The common oxygenates are stable molecules that do not form gums."
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 05:23:34 AM »
Wow, now there's a lot of info in a short time, thanks. Sounds like the most benefit of stabilizer is in warm storage rather than cold and it might be a good idea to seal off the gas cap vent during storage.
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Offline csendker

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 06:19:58 AM »
Gas cap vent?????  I never really put any thought into it.  It's a gravity system, so I suspect it makes sense to have a vent.  Where is it, in the middle of the underside of the cap? 

I haven't spent a whole lot of time looking at the cap, but I recall a circular gasket where it meets the tank.  I guess that would be to keep the gas from sloshing out of the tank rather than actually sealing it air-tight.  How would you seal this, put some gas-compatible plastic (saran-wrap?) over the tank hole before clipping the cap down?
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Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 06:36:55 AM »
Quote
Gas cap vent??  I never really put any thought into it.  It's a gravity system, so I suspect it makes sense to have a vent.  Where is it, in the middle of the underside of the cap? 

I haven't spent a whole lot of time looking at the cap, but I recall a circular gasket where it meets the tank.  I guess that would be to keep the gas from sloshing out of the tank rather than actually sealing it air-tight.  How would you seal this, put some gas-compatible plastic (saran-wrap?) over the tank hole before clipping the cap down?

So as not to get myself in trouble again between the different models, on my 750 there is a small hole toward the middle of the underside that is the vent. When I was going through the gas tank cleaning, acid etching routine last year, I cut a small swatch of plastic from a sandwich bag, placed it over the filler hole and snapped the cap shut and, of course sealed the petcock opening as well. I had no leaks of either the cleaner or the acid solution so I think this would work for this purpose also. Might be overkill, but what the heck.

I asked the question partly out of curiosity, but also because I've never had an issue with year-to-year storage of fuel for either the lawnmower (4-stroke) which is stored more or less during the same period and length of time as the bike, nor the snow blower (2-stroke) which is used only on occasion during the winter and is stored during the warmer months when the evaporation rate would be at the highest. Hell, the snow blower is 15 years old!
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Offline csendker

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Re: Looking for a petro chemist
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 07:15:59 AM »
I'm bad.  I don't do a damn thing to either my lawnmower or snowblower.  Whichever one is out of season just gets dumped into the shed with absolutely nothing done to it.  And they both start up when called upon the next season.  However, I don't ride either down the road at 60 mph.  If they die I get annoyed, not stranded or in a wipe out.  So maybe I should pay a bit more attention to the bike.  It seems pretty simple and easy to just fill the tank (~95%), dump in some stabilizer, seal the cap and sleep well.
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
Projects ---> Crusty old boat
Gallery --> http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/Christopher/?g2_navId=xada3c7ff