Author Topic: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off  (Read 1908 times)

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broken

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Hey all, I've been reading through some threads re: blown fuse and all that sort of thing but I thought'd I'd post up my specifics in case anyone's run into this exact thing.

Went to hop on my '75 CB400F this morning and no juice was flowing. Turns out the main fuse was blown and the fuse box melted a bunch. Here are the symptoms.

- main fuse heats up quickly and begins melting the fusebox ( until it blows I suppose )

- cut off switch doesn't cut the power ( I eliminated the switch from this problem by disconnecting one of the switch leads at a bunch of connections under the tank, once this was done the resistance across the switch leads seems to indicate the problem lies south of that connection and not at the switch or in the bars )

- I've never blown the main in 5+ yrs and the cutoff has always worked fine

- I recently replaced the plugs ( 2 months ) could these have drawn more juice and melted a short somewhere?

Apart from the lights which seem fine, where should I look for a short, or what else could this be? Not that it's not possible, by far, but after ~35 years would be strange to have short somewhere deep in the wiring no? Cheers all!

Phil


Offline zoo mob

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 10:17:11 AM »
Check to see if the positive battery terminal grounded out.
Andrew
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broken

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 10:20:02 AM »
Didn't seem that was the case, battery would've drained overnight no? Battery charge is 12.5v, which is what it's always been.

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 10:26:17 AM »
Unplug the ignition switch and disconnect the battery then test both sides of the hot circuit for short to ground.  That will at least narrow down your search.  While you're there, test the ignition switch as well.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

broken

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 10:47:59 AM »
I'll give that a shot, doesn't seem to be the ignition ( key? ) switch, I had that disconnected and the short still seemed present, seems between the fuse and the main cutoff, what's between those other than wire?

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 11:19:02 AM »
what do you mean by main cutoff?  the kill switch?  If so, the ignition switch is between the fuse and the kill switch.

Have you downloaded a wiring schematic yet?  For something like this you'll want to really get familiar with the diagram and work through the possible problematic points.  I usually go in the following order.

disconnect switches, electronic parts (rectifier, blinker, etc), and test the switches, then the wiring for short to ground or short to hot. 9 times our of 10 it's not a wire just randomly shorting unless you are not fused.  Since you are the fuse should blow before a wire melts.  Switches, on the other hand, are subject to corrosion that can lead to an internal short. 

Have fun learning more than you ever wanted to know about the wiring of your bike.  It's really not that bad once you get into it.

Good luck.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 11:20:38 AM »
Went to hop on my '75 CB400F this morning and no juice was flowing. Turns out the main fuse was blown and the fuse box melted a bunch. Here are the symptoms.

- main fuse heats up quickly and begins melting the fusebox ( until it blows I suppose )

Lot's are confused about fuse operation.  Here is more analysis than most want to read about.

The fuse element generates heat while passing current and runs hotter as the current approaches its fail point.  A 15 Amp fuse running at 2/3 its rating will be warm to the touch. (but, you con hold your thumb on it without discomfort)  A fuse that blows from passing current above its rating will usually melt near the center of it's length.

However, if you pass a current through any resistance it generates heat.  Lamps heat due to this property, as the element is resistive.  Resistive heating is often the root of fuse box melting/fuse melting issues.

Fuse box plastic doesn't melt with normal fuse operation or even when the fuse is running close to its parting temperature.  It will melt if something else is adding to that heat.  Often it is the corrosion/oxidation between the fuse and the fuse clips.  This oxidation is resistive, passing a current through it generates heat.  The heat generated adds to the fuse's normal run temp and causes the fuse to melt near or under it's end cap.
I've also seen them get hot enough to melt the solder behind the fuse box where the wires are attached to the fuse clip metal. (usually after someone has replaced with ever higher fuse ratings, as an ill-conceived band-aid, rather than address the real problem of fuse clip oxidation.
Anyway, once the fuse clips themselves go through higher temperature cycles, the metal loses its spring tension, and the lack of contact pressure also increases the contact resistance leading to more heat generation.

People also "upgrade" their lighting with components that draw more power through the fuse (increasing it's inherent run temp, as well as heat generated through any oxidation at the contact points.)

Another mistake frequently made is that people will use the wrong length fuse, leading to incomplete contact at the fuse ends.  Reduced contact area also leads to higher contact resistance, and the resultant higher heating.  All these detrimental effect are additive in creating fuse melting problems.

I often wonder why people don't simply take a 44 magnum to their fuseboxes as they alter it's functional behavior.  It would save time in the long run.

If your fuse box is melted, it needs to be replaced.  The clip normally self align, unless they are embedded in melted plastic.  You know what I'm going to say, right?  If the clips can't align themselves with the fuse ends, it reduces the contact area, which leads to higher resistance and more heat added to the problem.

The sad thing is, all this misery can be prevented by simply keeping the fuse to fuse clip contact area clean, bright, and shiny, which maintains a low resistive contact between fuse and fuse clip.

People pay attention to chrome on the bike that gets dull.  Then spend time polishing that metal or other bits of aluminum that's become unsightly.  But, will never think to polish fuse clips so they will function as intended.

If your fuse is running too hot to the touch (warm is ok) with all you accessories turned on, then you probably have fuse clip oxidation.  Oxidation can be stealthy, as in transparent.  It still needs to be polished to bare metal.

Finally, the fuse clip should grab onto the fuse ends so tightly that you cannot remove it with you bare hands/ fingers.  You should have to pry it out, or use the proper fuse puller tool that allows a firm strong tug on the fuse to wrest it from the clip's clutches.

Or...
You could have a chafed wire that is making contact with the frame somewhere.  But, that melted fusebox is still going to need replacing.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

broken

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 04:25:44 PM »
Thanks for the tips everyone. I did some fault tracking today and removed an instrument bulb which had blown and was faulting. Think this would be enough to blow the fuse, melt the box a little and such? I've cleaned up the fusebox and am using different terminals for the main fuse until I get a new box.

Phil

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 5yrs 1st Blown Fuse, Melted Fusebox, Cuttoff Switch Not Cutting Off
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 04:58:18 PM »
The function of the fuse is to prevent further damage to the electrical components when a single fault occurs, including melting of the fuse box.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.