Topic: BEARINGS, ceramic VS standard

[bistromath]

Plus, can ceramic bearings be run "wet"? And if they can, what does 20W50 do to the rolling resistance of these bearings?

[Sam Green Racing]

I don't mean to be the downer here, but what do you suppose the difference in loaded drag is in a gearbox with ceramic bearings compared to a gearbox with steel bearings? After all, bearing resistance isn't the primary cause of drag in the gearbox. The gear surfaces themselves are, followed by oil viscosity drag on the gears. So it seems like you'd be paying 4x the price for 10% improvement.

I think if you put ceramic bearings in a motor you are very serious about how you want your motor to perform.
If this is the case, the gear surfaces would be undecut and would themselves be ceramic coated, all because you have loads of money and can afford it.   

Sam.

[Industrial Cafe]

hmm....

[Sam Green Racing]

hmm....

Don't we just all wish.

Sam.

[Industrial Cafe]

I wanted to use them as wheel bearings, but they are about 120-150 each in the proper size.

I could get alot of cooler parts than bearings for that much

[Retro Rocket]

I don't mean to be the downer here, but what do you suppose the difference in loaded drag is in a gearbox with ceramic bearings compared to a gearbox with steel bearings? After all, bearing resistance isn't the primary cause of drag in the gearbox. The gear surfaces themselves are, followed by oil viscosity drag on the gears. So it seems like you'd be paying 4x the price for 10% improvement.

I think if you put ceramic bearings in a motor you are very serious about how you want your motor to perform.
If this is the case, the gear surfaces would be undecut and would themselves be ceramic coated, all because you have loads of money and can afford it.   

Sam.

Thanks Sam, my gearbox is already undercut and i suppose it wouldn't be too hard to get the gears ceramic coated while the engine is being rebuilt, actually i was thinking about getting the top of the 1000cc pistons i got off Jay ceramic coated, would this be ok?

Mick

[Sam Green Racing]

One of my sponsors in the UK is a company called Camcoat, they are the European distributors for an American company. I'll check if they have anything in Aus.

Sam.

[Sam Green Racing]

Here ya go.

Competition Engineering
10 Ferndell St Guildford,
New South Wales 2161
Australia
Phone/fax:
011-61-2-9648-1938

not sure if they are on line.

Sam.

[Retro Rocket]

Thanks Sam,i'll look into it. I have just found a guy that races Honda's not far from me and apparently his bikes are beating Rex Wolfenden's bikes and they are that ants pants. I'll have a chat to him as well.

Mick

[mlinder]

I don't mean to be the downer here, but what do you suppose the difference in loaded drag is in a gearbox with ceramic bearings compared to a gearbox with steel bearings? After all, bearing resistance isn't the primary cause of drag in the gearbox. The gear surfaces themselves are, followed by oil viscosity drag on the gears. So it seems like you'd be paying 4x the price for 10% improvement.

I was asking myself the same question, but concerning the entire bottom end of the cb350 twin, which is kinda a lot of freakin bearings.
But I just don't know how much loss of power there is in the bearings. The ceramic ones supposedly have 70% less friction. But if steel bearings throughout cost me, say, 1 HP, all I'd get is .7hp out of the deal.

[Sam Green Racing]

Hell Mark, 7bhp from a motor that only produces 36 in the first place is a nice percentage in my book.

That is tuning that puts no strain on the motor at all.

Sam.

[mlinder]

Hell Mark, 7bhp from a motor that only produces 36 in the first place is a nice percentage in my book.

That is tuning that puts no strain on the motor at all.

Sam.

thats point 7, Sam, .7
Not 7

[honda750k]

even at .7 hp, its still some gain that also makes your motor work better.   dont lie, if you could afford it, you'd do this just for fun.

[Retro Rocket]

The 750 gearbox sucks a fair bit of horses, wonder what the improvement would be there?
It would also be less stress for the primary chains as well i would imagine.   Hmmmm, how much money do i have..........

Mick

[Ichiban 4]

Thanks very much for posting this video clip Sam.  Very informative and helpful.

Al / Ichi

__________________________________________________________________________

[Sam Green Racing]

Hell Mark, 7bhp from a motor that only produces 36 in the first place is a nice percentage in my book.

That is tuning that puts no strain on the motor at all.

Sam.

thats point 7, Sam, .7
Not 7

My old eyes at the end of a 12 hour night shift didn't see that little dot

Sam.

[Bodi]

I don't know that a skateboard bearing is a great example. The video shows a clean steel bearing (usually 608zz in skateboards) but is it lubricated? The ceramic bearing is apparently dry, a dry steel bearing will spin longer than a lubed one.
Skateboarders go through bearings like Popeye goes through spinach. The unsealed bearings are rolling close to the road, and they get full of grit. And fail.
So would ceramic bearings be a good idea on a motorcycle wheel? Do you lubricate them? You will still need a mechanical seal to keep dirt out, will the drag reduction from the bearings be worthwhile when you consider the contact seals?
Maybe for racing, but I can't see a good reason to use these for street riding. And remember, the trickest, fastest, most powerful SOHC4 will still be a floppy pathetically slow antique beside an R1. No amount of money, time, and love is going to turn any CB750 into a competitive sportbike in 2009.

[HB-1fan]

CALL Dave Conforti at "World Wide" bearings, they specialize in motorsport ceramic bearings and he is a vintage bike guy.

http://www.worldwidebearings.com/

[Industrial Cafe]

I don't know that a skateboard bearing is a great example. The video shows a clean steel bearing (usually 608zz in skateboards) but is it lubricated? The ceramic bearing is apparently dry, a dry steel bearing will spin longer than a lubed one.
Skateboarders go through bearings like Popeye goes through spinach. The unsealed bearings are rolling close to the road, and they get full of grit. And fail.
So would ceramic bearings be a good idea on a motorcycle wheel? Do you lubricate them? You will still need a mechanical seal to keep dirt out, will the drag reduction from the bearings be worthwhile when you consider the contact seals?
Maybe for racing, but I can't see a good reason to use these for street riding. And remember, the trickest, fastest, most powerful SOHC4 will still be a floppy pathetically slow antique beside an R1. No amount of money, time, and love is going to turn any CB750 into a competitive sportbike in 2009.

I don't want to compete with those rockets. that's out of the question- I just want the best for my best girl.

[Markcb750]

Anyone who cares enough to take the time & spend the money to substutute an improved bearing in a 35 year old motorcycle earns my respect.






If you do it well.


Just an old chief engineer saying.

[noahspop]

There is a place I use to get bulk bearings from for my old skateshop. They are called VBX I believe. They are out of Southern Cal. I do know they have them for all shapes and sizes. I'm not sure if they are a distributor or manufacter, but they are great people none the less.

I do know that stell ball bearings eventually get pits in them. No matter what bearings you use, especially for skateboarding, they will need to be cleaned. The seals never seam to stay intact, so dirt is always getting in there.

"The video shows a clean steel bearing (usually 608zz in skateboards) but is it lubricated? The ceramic bearing is apparently dry, a dry steel bearing will spin longer than a lubed one." I agree.........

 

[Retro Rocket]

Anyone who cares enough to take the time & spend the money to substitute an improved bearing in a 35 year old motorcycle earns my respect.






If you do it well.


Just an old chief engineer saying.

Right on Mark....