Topic: Another political themed post. Because, ya know... there's not enough already.

[masonryman]

every system mentioned is good for someone, not one is good for everyone.

The question is, and you don't have answer out loud, do you want whats best for yourself or whats best for everyone.

 

[Ecosse]

Hmm, call me stupid, but I'm thinking along this way:
1. They show 5 systems at the beginning
2. Eliminate 2 extreme ones, leaving oligarchy, republic and democracy.
3. Oligarchy is bad, so that leaves republic and democracy
4. Democracy is bad too, so the only proper system is republic.

Hence my conclusion (unless I'm thinking illogically)... not that the above thinking is wrong, I just simply see it as another political propaganda spiced with bits of history.

geez, you're going to make me break my 'smiley face' rule. republic and democracy are not to be confused with the republican and democratic parties.

we do live in a republic. the video explains this.

it's not a pure republic but then i'm not sure there is any pure form of government in existence currently, or maybe ever; look at the uk for example... a monarchy or "democracy"?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, republic doesn't mean republicans, that's just the name for the other political party here.
The other one is the democrats.
But, in reality there really isn't much difference between the two anymore, they serve the same master- and it isn't the people.

So what do we have here, I wouldn't call it a republic. They sure as hell don't answer to us anymore.

[lynchj]

I'm not the most politically savy person in the world but I bet there is some "spin" twisted in that video. The subliminal images that flash up are there for a reason. I think the video is a good reminder of what our forefathers originally intended this country to be. We have drifted a long way from the "Republic" for which we stand.....

 Thanks ecosse!   

[Ecosse]

Yeah, republic doesn't mean republicans, that's just the name for the other political party here.
The other one is the democrats.
But, in reality there really isn't much difference between the two anymore, they serve the same master- and it isn't the people.

So what do we have here, I wouldn't call it a republic. They sure as hell don't answer to us anymore.

well i'd agree with you a lot there... but there is a shift beginning. granted it won't happen over night, the mess in dc didn't happen over night either. but more people of differing political affiliations are wising up, realizing united we stand, divided we fall isn't just a saying, and for all our differences, we need to take back our country together. it can and will happen. non violently i might add. kick all the bums out, term limits for all, recognize good representatives (dem, indie and gop) and we the people need to be vigilant.

it's still a republic. just a dysfunctional one. 

[Ecosse]

The subliminal images that flash up are there for a reason.

if there were (effective) subliminal messages you wouldn't notice them.  

[Duke McDukiedook]

But "they" have gotten really good at dividing "us" is a big part of the problem.

Broken education system, corporate wars without end or reason (ala 1984), broken health care system, class divisions, taxation without representation, they are actually very good at what they do- all intentionally done to separate us and collectively dumb us down. Don't want any stray sheep tuning into thinkers here- just watch the idiot box, vote for your favorite idol by phone, buy now, pay later.

They fool us into thinking they are on our side, it's what they do well.

[Ecosse]

But "they" have gotten really good at dividing "us" is a big part of the problem.

i know and it's a big challenge to get my fellow citizens to realize when they may be parroting our non-representatives (as most of us have at one point), understanding disagreeing doesn't mean there aren't (significant) things to agree on, and i'll side with my neighbor before some suit in dc.

They fool us into thinking they are on our side, it's what they do well.

"The change it had to come, we knew it all along".  "And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again... Don't get fooled again"

-the who

the good news is there are a few on the inside who still have their souls. but i'll trust my neighbor first.

[Buber]

well i'd agree with you a lot there... but there is a shift beginning. granted it won't happen over night, the mess in dc didn't happen over night either. but more people of differing political affiliations are wising up, realizing united we stand, divided we fall isn't just a saying, and for all our differences, we need to take back our country together. it can and will happen. non violently i might add. kick all the bums out, term limits for all, recognize good representatives (dem, indie and gop) and we the people need to be vigilant.

it's still a republic. just a dysfunctional one. 

That's all nice and sweet. Just when you will be fixing your country, remember that you are not alone on this planet - that is, at least TRY to curb your energy devouring habits, and your mortgage habits, because I have no mortgage, yet they reduced my salary and I'm feeling like I'm paying a part of USA debt now....

Aha, and be nice to China. Otherwise they will bankrupt you... you know how much USA debt they own, don't you?

[Ecosse]

That's all nice and sweet. Just when you will be fixing your country, remember that you are not alone on this planet - that is, at least TRY to curb your energy devouring habits, and your mortgage habits, because I have no mortgage, yet they reduced my salary and I'm feeling like I'm paying a part of USA debt now....

Aha, and be nice to China. Otherwise they will bankrupt you... you know how much USA debt they own, don't you?

debt? us? wow, i'm sure glad someone from another country was kind enough to enlighten me with their knowlege of my country's economic situation. how will i ever be able to thank you?!  

see, i can be sarcastic too.  

allow me to try and return the educational tip with another. you might notice the most developed and productive nations use the most energy. and don't you worry, someday even poland might join the rest of us in that regard.

by the way according to what i've read (one source below) the rest of the world started seeing an economic slump before the u.s. suggesting it wasn't brought on by our mortgage crisis. and you better hope china doesn't bankrupt us. after all who will support the united nations?  if the 'states goes under, wee countries like yours may have a dickens of a time (vis a vis Georgia) with, say... russia?

this post was meant as a basic review of political systems. not taking the first opportunity to poke a stick at big evil imperialistic usa.

source: www.cato-at-liberty.org

Posted by Alan Reynolds 2/22/2009

In the Washington Post, Ricardo Caballero of MIT has a novel and promising idea about “How to Lift a Falling Economy.”  Unfortunately, he echoes the mantra that all the world’s economic problems can be traced to the U.S. in general, and to big U.S. banks in particular.  “Already,” he says, “this illness has spread to the global economy.”

Already?  Industrial production in Japan began collapsing in November 2007, two months ahead of the U.S., and the Japanese industrial decline has been twice as fast.

Unlike the U.S., real GDP began falling in the second quarter of 2008 in Germany, France, Italy, Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong.  By no coincidence, that was when the price of oil rose as high as $145 a barrel.  Soaring oil prices raise the cost of production and distribution for many industries, and reduce real household incomes and therefore consumption.   Nine of the ten postwar U.S. recessions were preceded by a major spike in the price of oil.

In a piece for the Claremont Review of Books (written last November), I conclude , “This recession is not just a U.S. problem, not just about housing, and not just financial.”

Compare the decline in real GDP over the past 4 quarters (from The Economist):

U.S.
   

-0.2%

France
   

-1.0

Germany
   

-1.6

Britain
   

-1.8

Italy
   

-2.6

Japan
   

-4.6

Does it make sense to blame the largest declines in GDP on one country with the smallest decline?  If so, then we need some explanation of how some uniquely American “illness has spread” to so many innocent victims.

If the explanation is supposed to be falling U.S. imports, then the worst decline by far would have been in Canada and Mexico (where real GDP was rising even in the third quarter).  If the alleged causality is supposed to be because of some undefined links between financial centers, then Italy would not be among the hardest hit.

When it comes to trade, in fact, the shoe is mainly on the other foot: Collapsing foreign economies crushed U.S. exports.

In the second quarter of 2008, U.S. exports accounted for 1.54 percentage points of the 2.83% annualized rise in real GDP.  But falling exports subtracted 2.84 percentage points from fourth quarter GDP.  Falling exports, not falling consumption, were the biggest single contributor to the overall drop of 3.8%.

After looking at which economies fell first and fastest, it might be more accurate to say that some foreign  illness has spread to the U.S. economy than to assert or assume the causality ran only in the opposite direction.

[MickeyX]

Oh, here we go again.  It was a good video. Easy to understand. Simple explanation. So, how many arguments and hurt feelings can we muster this time? Hmmmm?

And now for something completely different the same...

 

[Ecosse]

awesome mickey! that is absolute classic stuff... and now i can return to my smiley face responses.


 

[Buber]

Hmmm. Let's say first - thanks for the PM. No worries.

On the other hand - how to turn a party foul? Start talking about religion or politics...   Basically here in Europe this is what people think - that is, we did nothing wrong yet economy fails. I'm lucky, I'm in the only country here that has a growth of national product, but still one can feel the effects of the crisis (look at Lithuania or Estonia with -15% or -20% of GNP)
Now, suggesting that it was not the USA economy that caused what happened is akin to new political trend in Russia that says that WW2 was caused by Polish aggressive diplomacy.
After all, the famous NINJA credits were invented where? Just remind me, please. So, let's not go too far in figuring out who caused the crisis.

As per topic - I personally consider myself lucky, because I was able to live and understand (that is, I was old enough to understand) the workings of 2 very different political systems, the communist one (albeit according to the communist bloc nobody ever reached the "communist system", that being some kind of nirvana. We had "socialistic" system that was supposed to bring us there.. ) and a free market, democratic one.

And you know what? Politics sucks big time from whatever point you look at it. Of course there are idealists who create theories of political systems (Marx, Lenin, etc and on the other hand guys who wrote your constitution - BTW, Poland's Constitution of 3rd may 1791 was copied after US one, and was 1st in Europe. but that's another story ) but those are just that - theories. When they get applied to reality we get... what we see, and what we see is shameless grab for power influenced by the money. Of course at the beginning some of the politicians are trying to do something - unitl they lose their virginity, and then it' sback to the old one - grab the power while you can!

So, it's nice to discuss those things, it's sad to see how far politicians diverted from the original concept, but ultimately, there's not much you can do about it.
For me personally, the biggest realization of how far US of A diverted from the original concept is the state of the religion (aha, not enough about politics, now it will be about religion too ). It seems that the original concept was for a free country separated from religion (famous Tripoli treaty http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm ), and current US seems very religious and fundamental about christianity.

So, concept was good execution is so-so, life goes on. And if it called republic, democracy or whatever else (like UK) at the end we all need to pay taxes and pay for fuel for our bikes. And you guys, of all, shouldn't complain about gas prices .

And I still consider this short movie a political propaganda

Cheers!

[Ecosse]

i'm so tired (and lazy) my eyes are going to fall outta my head... so i'm just going to add notes.

Hmmm. Let's say first - thanks for the PM. No worries.

On the other hand - how to turn a party foul? Start talking about religion or politics...   i know... it's a minefield with those subjects Basically here in Europe this is what people think - it's easy to blame the most powerful country for ones own problems... that is, we did nothing wrong yet economy fails. that's how we feel- well, the politicians effed up   I'm lucky, I'm in the only country here that has a growth of national product, but still one can feel the effects of the crisis (look at Lithuania or Estonia with -15% or -20% of GNP)
Now, suggesting that it was not the USA economy that caused what happened is akin to new political trend in Russia that says that WW2 was caused by Polish aggressive diplomacy.
After all, the famous NINJA credits were invented where? Just remind me, please. So, let's not go too far in figuring out who caused the crisis. i didn't go too far. you implied it was the 'states causing poland's hardship. i just suggested it wasn't necessarily so. as the stats i posted show things globally started going bad before our mortgage mess. but we're the big overpowering bullies so blame away.  

As per topic - I personally consider myself lucky, because I was able to live and understand (that is, I was old enough to understand) the workings of 2 very different political systems, the communist one (albeit according to the communist bloc nobody ever reached the "communist system", that being some kind of nirvana. We had "socialistic" system that was supposed to bring us there.. ) and a free market, democratic one.

And you know what? Politics sucks big time from whatever point you look at it. it sure can. yes, but it also can be the thing that allows us to see our potential as a society Of course there are idealists who create theories of political systems (Marx, Lenin, etc and on the other hand guys who wrote your constitution - BTW, Poland's Constitution of 3rd may 1791 was copied after US huh, never knew that! idealism by the way is one of this country's strengths. our founding fathers were smart chaps too. and our contitution was, at least in part, inspired by a scottish document  one, and was 1st in Europe. but that's another story
very cool... didn't know that!) but those are just that - theories. When they get applied to reality we get... what we see, and what we see is shameless grab for power influenced by the money. human nature. that's why our system has checks and balances. the reason we're having the trouble we are is largely because citizens have become lazy about civic duty Of course at the beginning some of the politicians are trying to do something - unitl they lose their virginity, and then it' sback to the old one - grab the power while you can! agreed. that's why i argue for term limits... a growing desire among people here.

So, it's nice to discuss those things, it's sad to see how far politicians diverted from the original concept, but ultimately, there's not much you can do about it.   here we can
For me personally, the biggest realization of how far US of A diverted from the original concept is the state of the religion (aha, not enough about politics, now it will be about religion too ). It seems that the original concept was for a free country separated from religion (famous Tripoli treaty http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm ), uh, no. there's nothing in our constitution about a separation from religion. only that we don't have a nationally sanctioned religion- freedom of (not from) religion. faith has always been apart of this country, i have quotes from founding fathers who didn't have any problem with atheism but faith in god has always been part of our culture and laws and current US seems very religious and fundamental about christianity. well we've always had a tradition in faith- but don't let our pop culture and media fool you, they paint anyone believing in god as a bible nut.

So, concept was good execution is so-so, life goes on. at least we're able to change/improve... it's the design of our system And if it called republic, democracy or whatever else (like UK) at the end we all need to pay taxes and pay for fuel for our bikes. And you guys, of all, shouldn't complain about gas prices . we generally complain when it spikes. that's hard for anyone. our gas tends to be lower because we (so far anyway) don't get clobbered with taxes the way many other countries do.

And I still consider this short movie a political propaganda whatever helps you sleep nights.    

Cheers!

ok, all the notations didn't take any less time than just writing my thoughts. screwed myself again.    i gotta sleepp

[Duke McDukiedook]

yeah, so we got the religious wackadoos and the profiteers, Europe didn't want them!

I blame Europe for our whacky fundamentalism! 

[edbikerii]

My knee-jerk reaction was to try to defend my country with all of the positive things we have done for the world, including Poland.  I won't do that now, as it really isn't productive in this case anyway.

I think you need to remember that the people of the United States do not necessarily represent the US Government (despite all the claims to the contrary that politicians like to make).  For years the US government has been encouraging people to spend un-wisely, including home equity loans, car loans, motorcycle loans, etc.

I, for one, do not have excessive debt.  I drive an American car that is 9 years old and gets over 24 MPG (despite being quite comfortable and accomodating my family well), and my utility bills average less than $200/month in my home, including heat, hot water, and electricity.

I believe that the US government policies of reducing interest rates in order to encourage borrowing to keep the economy growing are very dubious.  I may be in the minority, but I think there are probably at least 100 million Americans who are NOT crazy with excess.  Yes, I have seen the craziness, and it is atrocious.  I have lived through it with a crazy-spender of an ex-wife, too.

I also think that the borrowing and excessive consumption is destroying our basic skill sets.  How many homeowners these days bother to learn how to change a faucet, or replace their own roof, or fix their own car or motorcycle.  The people on this forum are different because we LIKE fixing things, but most Americans these days don't know the first thing about fixing stuff.  Instead, they complain that "my car is three years old, it is time to buy a new one", and "a new roof is going to cost me $500 per month more".

Perhaps more people are now free to pursue the things that interest them, but I feel that most people are now free to pursue catching up on their television and video game playing, rather than doing anything useful while their debts rack up.  Of course, this can only go on for so long before it all comes tumbling down.

Funny thing, Tim Geithner is now saying the same things that Alan Greenspan said about how we can provide low interest loans to get us out of the recession.  That IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE LONG-TERM PROBLEMS.  It will help politicians win votes, though.

well i'd agree with you a lot there... but there is a shift beginning. granted it won't happen over night, the mess in dc didn't happen over night either. but more people of differing political affiliations are wising up, realizing united we stand, divided we fall isn't just a saying, and for all our differences, we need to take back our country together. it can and will happen. non violently i might add. kick all the bums out, term limits for all, recognize good representatives (dem, indie and gop) and we the people need to be vigilant.

it's still a republic. just a dysfunctional one. 

That's all nice and sweet. Just when you will be fixing your country, remember that you are not alone on this planet - that is, at least TRY to curb your energy devouring habits, and your mortgage habits, because I have no mortgage, yet they reduced my salary and I'm feeling like I'm paying a part of USA debt now....

Aha, and be nice to China. Otherwise they will bankrupt you... you know how much USA debt they own, don't you?

[Inigo Montoya]

Maybe all the political/healthcare crap just needs to die down for a while. We have winter coming in a few months and we need something to talk about when them damn aussies and their NZ lackeys start riding!