Author Topic: I put a hole in #2  (Read 2969 times)

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masonryman

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I put a hole in #2
« on: September 19, 2009, 04:11:46 PM »
I went on a ride to day about 40 miles from the house it lost power and started smoking. I stopped and bought some oil and made for home, When I got home I disassembled the bike and this is what I found.

Plugs 1 and 2 were oil fowled 3 and 4 looked to be lean, on # 4 the electrode was burned off.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 05:49:19 PM by masonryman »

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2009, 04:28:03 PM »
Right down the center! Wow.
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masonryman

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2009, 04:34:42 PM »
Right down the center! Wow.

Yea, that's got to mean something
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 04:36:31 PM by masonryman »

masonryman

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2009, 04:38:01 PM »
I have never smoked a bike engine before, I feel kinda bad
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 04:59:02 PM by masonryman »

masonryman

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2009, 05:17:50 PM »
I posted this looking for reasons, I'm guessing it's running to lean to lean? it's got 105 mains and the needles have been raised 1 notch

Offline Gordon

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2009, 05:30:29 PM »
I posted this looking for reasons, I'm guessing it's running to lean to lean? it's got 105 mains and the needles have been raised 1 notch

Any other mods?

Offline davesprinkle

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2009, 05:38:43 PM »
Definitely preignition.  The spark plug was glowing red-hot, lighting off the fuel-air mixture.  Question is, how did it get so hot?  Probably running lean.

masonryman

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Re: Put a hole in #2
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2009, 05:52:10 PM »
Nope, stock air box and filters, stock exhaust with a small rust hole in the bottom
The carbs are off an older model 022A I think 069A's were stock
I posted this looking for reasons, I'm guessing it's running to lean to lean? it's got 105 mains and the needles have been raised 1 notch

Any other mods?

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2009, 09:54:57 PM »
There seems to be a dichtomy here: dark piston crowns with a holed center and missing electrode on another plug...one seems to indicate rich, another indicates preignition....also, the fact that it is an SOHC4 engine with a hole in a piston: save that thing - that's rare enough to be of value!
Hmmmm...

My first reactions are:
Which plugs are you using?
What is the ignition timing?
the jetting you describe seems about right, certainly not far enough off to cause this by itself. But...if you have a leaky carb inlet (those 30.8mm O-rings in the metal tubes that connect the carbs to the head), the carbs will run a poorly atomized mixture that will not burn well, leaving soot behind, but knocking because the heating is very uneven. Typically, the mild swirl the charge receives in these engines will prevent some of the knock, but if the mix is not aerated it will not burn well, anyway.

So, here's what I would do, if it were parked in my driveway with the other 3 CB550s at the moment:
1. Pull off the float bowls and emulsifier tubes and look VERY closely at the emulsifier tubes. See if the holes are partially blocked with a calcium-like material, which comes from the years of letting the bowls dry out, then filling them back up, but never cleaning out these important tubes' holes. They are small, on the order of .025" to .031", and can stand to be [considerably] larger, so at the very least, poke through those holes with wires, at best with drill bits until you start removing metal, to know you are not just sraping away those almost-invisible deposits. If I had $5 for every SOHC4 bike I've fixed this way, I would not have a mortgage...
2. Repeat step #1 with the idle pilot jets. they are just miniature emulsifier tubes, too.
3. Remove the inlet castings to the head and install new O-rings. These are the same size as are found in the valve caps, 30.8x3.5mm (you can get the 31x3.5mm to work: I have a whole bag of these here). Look closely for cracks in the casting on the one where the piston is holed. A vacuum leak here CAN cause this problem: the affected cylinder and the next one in the firing order will both have sooty chambers, yet the leaky one will knock when running at 2500-4500 RPM (on any of these bike engines), because the slowed air in the carb is still trying to mix from the idle circuit, making a "clumpy" mixture in this scenario. This mixture will not burn well, making a very hot cylinder as compared to the others. (I devoted an entire half-chapter to this phenomenon in my book, wrote that part just last month!).
4. Check the timing components: bad condensors can make weak spark, which will let unburned fuel build up in a cylinder, then fire at erratic intervals when the fuel that is trapped in that carbon finally gets hot enough. This create a very hot piston crown. On a twin bike, this appears as a popping cylinder: on these Fours it may not be so noticeable because the engines always sound pretty busy anyway.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2009, 06:01:07 AM »
I spent a lot of time on these carbs about two years ago and then they sat on the self till I put them on this bike at which time I put one of your boxes and an entire points assembly on it.

I will disassemble the carbs today and check out the lower ends and let you know what I find. 

I have never been completely happy with the way this bike has ran, It has always had a, as you put it a very busy sound, almost noisy so it is hard to say how long it's had a problem or what it was.

As I tore the bike down I noticed some markings, not really etched but discolored spots where the bike sat on #1 and #2.

masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2009, 09:01:57 AM »
I was running Champion  RA8HC plugs,

I seems maybe I didn't get far enough in it, I have been getting all kinds of differant readings at the plugs and I kept messing with the carbs trying to richin it up. At this point a am leaning toward a intake leak at the o-rings on #1 and #2 I'll check in that when I go look at the carbs

Mark

masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 04:40:51 PM »


 I disassembled the carbs and removed the intakes....#4 intake had a big crack in the O-ring explains the plug with burnt electrode #1 and #2 idol jets both plugged all emulsifier tube holes were fine. # 2 float seat valve was about 50-60% blocked with a piece of the white stuff.


Checking into parts, in the mean time I installed a 1975-k long block in the bike so I can ride it till it gets cold.

Offline Tnutz

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 05:08:28 PM »
didn't it idle funny with idle jets plugged?  why would you leave it like that? ???
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masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2009, 05:12:31 PM »
It has been a battle, this bike sat inside for 15 years before last spring. It had not been rode or even started.

I went through the carbs on it and they were complete junk so I put another set I had rebuilt for another bike on it, the carbs were off less than a week ago ???
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 05:14:06 PM by masonryman »

Offline Tnutz

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 05:29:01 PM »
tell me about that, i had a set of 500/4 carbs on mine and the were ruined. So i bought a good running high miler and stole all the stuff i needed like good carbs off of that. 
2004 Ducati 999 mono posto.
-Full Termignoni exhaust
-Lots 'o' carbon fibre


1973 Honda cb500/4
-Motor Rebuild
-Has clubmans
-Paint is sub par
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masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 05:53:30 PM »
I really don't know where the debris is coming from, I replace the in tank filter and I am going to replace all the lines again.

masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 04:20:06 PM »
the bike is back together with a few changes

I did some porting and gasket matching, polishing the inside of the intake castings, set the valves and timing with a light this time ::). Dropped a couple teeth on the front sprocket.

I Cleaned the carbs inside and out and changed the jetting. I was going to leave the air box off and run pods but I think I am going to reinstall the airbox.

 I have taken the bike for spirited ride and checked the plugs, it is showing lean with the needles all the way down and 120 jets and 40 idol jets.
I think I am going to drop the clips 1 notch and put the box back in and see what happens


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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 10:08:50 PM »
the bike is back together with a few changes

I did some porting and gasket matching, polishing the inside of the intake castings, set the valves and timing with a light this time ::). Dropped a couple teeth on the front sprocket.

I Cleaned the carbs inside and out and changed the jetting. I was going to leave the air box off and run pods but I think I am going to reinstall the airbox.

 I have taken the bike for spirited ride and checked the plugs, it is showing lean with the needles all the way down and 120 jets and 40 idol jets.
I think I am going to drop the clips 1 notch and put the box back in and see what happens



I'd suggest middle notch for starters. What is your air screw setting?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2009, 05:01:19 AM »
1 turn out at present.


The middle notch it is, you don't think it sounds like too much with the stock air box?

it is getting way too much air at present with the pods, or at least it's not crating enough vacuum, I have not checked the vac at the intakes is there a # I would be looking for?

When I put the 120's in I thought it would be to much but I had them so I thought I would give them a try.

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2009, 06:29:33 AM »
I'm presuming a CB550, here...
Usually a 116 mainjet is too rich, will foul plugs even with pods. So, a 120 should be worse. If it is still lean with a 120, your O-rings need replacement on the casting where the carbs bolt to the head, and/or the rubber hoses at the carbs are leaking. Try wider hose clamps there, if nothing else. The original aluminum strap clamps stretch over the years and they won't clamp tightly anymore. Honda still sells them, if you want to keep the OEM look. If the hoses are real hard, those clamps still won't work, you'll need something stronger (or new hoses).

The air screw shoud be at 1.5 turns on a typical 550. 1 turn is mighty lean on those carbs. 2 turns is usually enough to foul plugs, so that's your range. I've found on bikes that have come to visit this summer, with pods, the setting has to go in about 1/8 turn or so, but there will be a pronounced flat spot where it changes from rich idle to lean midrange at about 3000-2500 RPM or so.

With Uni filters in stock airboxes, the air screw has gone in to about 1.25 turns to lean them out so they won't load up and foul plugs in about 100 miles. I've been washing out the Uni filters, drying them, then treating them VERY lightly with a spray oil (not K&N oil, that's too thick for Uni foam filters). You can also roll up a Uni filter tightly, hold it like a little cigar, dribble a line of oil on one side and let it soak in. Then knead the filter gently to spread that oil around. It's very easy to over-oil those foam filters, resulting in a too-rich mix and poor breathing performance.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

masonryman

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Re: I put a hole in #2
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2009, 04:11:24 PM »
first the disclaimer,

 I injured no part of the bike or any stock parts in the following mock up.

So having the bike apart 6 times in the last week I decided to try and fit my homemade center exit exhaust on the stock appearing bike.

 I was having trouble tuning the bike, the latest change I lowered the clips on the needles to the center and put this exhaust on it........

I have only taken it on a short ride and the performance and acceleration is....wow,  and the sound is pretty cool also.

sorry about the crapy cell phone pics I'll post something better soon

Mark
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 04:13:11 PM by masonryman »