Author Topic: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...  (Read 25306 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« on: October 11, 2009, 02:48:28 PM »
Many of us have seen these $4 and $5 Daiichi points for these SOHC4 bikes lately, and have had some poor luck with installing them. Last weekend, someone came to my backyard for a tuneup with a brand new pair of these, and no matter what we tried, the timing was 'WAY advanced when the gap was set even to the minimum .012" value: the slots on the timing plate would have had to be widened almost 3/8" just to make them reach the "F" mark(s) (and I don't have a mill for that kind of accuracy). So, we could not install those points. I could get them to set up with a points gap of .009", but this small gap will cause the contacts to burn very quickly because they do not separate far enough to extingush the arc.

I've had this happen 4 times now, this year, on 750s and a 550.

So, I decided to do an in-depth study today, since it's snowing here in Denver. Below are some pictures where I compared the Daiichi to some TEC points (high quality units) that timed in perfectly at .014" gap and middle of the points plate slots. One of the pictures shows the TEC points on the left (by my finger) and 4 sets of Daiichi points to the right: you can see that even from points set to points set, these points do not even look the same: check out their grounding arms. This will cause myriad timing issues when trying to install them.

But, these points are everywhere, and because they are so cheap, will probably remain around for a while. I decided to measure their screwy geometry to find out why they are so far off, and below is shown what I've found, measuring the ones you see in these pictures. The Daiichi numbers shown are averaged over the pair of right and left points, and the TEC numbers are from the one set that I know is good.

The result: if you are going to use these points, the first thing you must do is widen the slots on the points plate, to the right as you view the plate on the bike, so that you can retard it far enough to reach the "F" marks while the points gap is in the .012" to .016" range. The geometry situation is: the rubbing foot is a different length and the distance from mid-foot to the pivot center is too short. Together, these add up to almost .005" of mechanical error on the design of these points. That explains perfectly why I had to gap at .009" to make them time up right.

(BTW: Not to turn this into an 'ad', but...if the Hondaman Ignition is used, this .009" gap is no problem. I've had this on my own bike at .011" gap on 1-4 and .012" gap on 2-3 for over 2 years, now...there's no arcing problem then. That's one solution.)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 10:54:07 AM »
Hondaman,

How are the springs in these points? Will they bounce? Have you done any double springing?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 07:07:16 PM »
Hondaman,

How are the springs in these points? Will they bounce? Have you done any double springing?

I haven't double-sprung since the 1970s, when the springs became an integral part of the arm with welded-on assembly...I have cross-cut the points' faces with a Dremel and cutoff wheel, though, and sometimes drilled a vent hole through the stationary side to accomplish the same thing (i.e., venting the air away - more important at roadrace engine speeds, or in the high-revving Ford FE 427 SOHC engines of the 1960s and '70s...) If you can find some of those performance points that come with the cross-cut "X" on their faces and a circled "C" emblem stamped on them, those have stronger springs, too. For a while, Action Fours offered ones that were already ventilated and countersunk, which worked well.

Originally, the points' springs were staked in place, with the foot connection being the rivet and the back side of that being staked. You could drill out the center of the 'rivet' and grind the rest off flush to the spring's thickness, then drill and tap the inside of the 'rivet' for a 2-56 screw (with lockwasher and red Loctite), and add in a second spring from a donor set of (used) points that you scrapped out for the purpose. Most of the points I see now are welded construction, which would make this pretty difficult to accomplish.

[Edit]: I went and looked over some of the more recent offerings, and some of them (Daiichi included) have rivets on them again. These could probably be relatively easily double-springed. The hole where the spring connects at one end will have to be slightly elongated to make it wrap, and be sure to use a little bit larger washer over the end on the springs to hold it together firmly.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 07:55:10 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline axehole54

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 08:12:41 PM »
I just installed a set of those cheapo points on the weekend... From out of the box they were arcing from the point back across the spring/housing.  I "modified" (bent the housing a little) and it seems to work okay but they hardley seem worth the savings.  I guess just another "cost me more in the long run" venture... CDI conversion anyone?
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Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 06:45:24 PM »
Mark,
Can you identify these points? The little logo looks like it could be two block style letters inside a circle. The first is definitely an H, second could be an A, which could be "Honda America", but hard to tell. The don't seem to be as good a quality as the TEC.
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 10:32:28 PM »
Mark,
Can you identify these points? The little logo looks like it could be two block style letters inside a circle. The first is definitely an H, second could be an A, which could be "Honda America", but hard to tell. The don't seem to be as good a quality as the TEC.

Those look like Hap Arnold points from the 1960s. They used to make parts for all sorts of Japanese bikes. Not the best stuff, but usually serviceable.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 03:29:49 AM »
i'm guessing that doing the small hole for ventilation isnt important when using your ignition is it?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 09:50:25 PM »
i'm guessing that doing the small hole for ventilation isnt important when using your ignition is it?

Only if you plan on spending considerable time above 9000 RPM.  :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline heyjones

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 01:48:47 PM »
I'm looking into replacing my points during my rebuild... BikeBandit has the OEM complete points plate for $52... not much more than the Daichi ones from PartsNMore. Worth the extra $20?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2010, 06:02:42 AM »
I'm looking into replacing my points during my rebuild... BikeBandit has the OEM complete points plate for $52... not much more than the Daichi ones from PartsNMore. Worth the extra $20?

I saw one of those Bike Bandit plates here last Fall. I think it was FEW brand from Italy, IIRC. The backplate was thinner than a TEC or Hitachi plate, and the outer diameter was about 0.5mm smaller. While it worked, be aware that the gaps will probably shift a little when you loosen the 3 screws to turn the plate because it can move around inside the edge guides. I resorted to pushing downward (toward the ground) whenever I loosened the screws to turn the plate to set the 1-4 timing and gap. It worked out OK.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2010, 06:45:58 AM »
Mark,
Can you identify these points? The little logo looks like it could be two block style letters inside a circle. The first is definitely an H, second could be an A, which could be "Honda America", but hard to tell. The don't seem to be as good a quality as the TEC.

Those look like Hap Arnold points from the 1960s. They used to make parts for all sorts of Japanese bikes. Not the best stuff, but usually serviceable.  ;)
Just a re-cap on these points. Went to Western Hills Honda and took a look at the points, bought a new set, and low and behold, the HA in a circle logo was on the set right out of the Honda package.
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

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Offline heyjones

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2010, 08:39:24 AM »
So where can I order a decent set of points?
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Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2010, 09:25:50 AM »
So where can I order a decent set of points?
Looks like the points with the HA logo are Honda America after all. Although they don't seem as nice as the TEC, they look plenty good enough, and are working fine in my bike.
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.......
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Offline heyjones

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2010, 09:30:00 AM »
Where'd you get those from? I can't find anyone that sells the TEC points.
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Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2010, 09:53:15 AM »
Where'd you get those from? I can't find anyone that sells the TEC points.
The TEC points I had where in the bike when I got it, the HA points, I bought at Western Hills Honda.
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.......
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2010, 04:32:56 PM »
Mark,
Can you identify these points? The little logo looks like it could be two block style letters inside a circle. The first is definitely an H, second could be an A, which could be "Honda America", but hard to tell. The don't seem to be as good a quality as the TEC.

Those look like Hap Arnold points from the 1960s. They used to make parts for all sorts of Japanese bikes. Not the best stuff, but usually serviceable.  ;)
Just a re-cap on these points. Went to Western Hills Honda and took a look at the points, bought a new set, and low and behold, the HA in a circle logo was on the set right out of the Honda package.

Good work, BB!
I'll have to get a set of those and check them out. I haven't heard of Honda America points before. Have they been around long? My local dealer was selling Daiichi until someone "called" them on it, then switched to Honda's supplied parts. I haven't bought any there in over 2 years because of it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2010, 06:19:08 PM »
     I'm just speculating that the "HA" stands for Honda America. The first time I got them, I didn't get a package. Here's a pic of them before I opened the "Genuine Honda Parts" package. The packaging looked old, probably new old stock Western Hills Honda is known for.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 06:22:00 PM by Brown Bomber »
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.......
                                                                          Vito Corleone

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 07:07:40 PM »
     I'm just speculating that the "HA" stands for Honda America. The first time I got them, I didn't get a package. Here's a pic of them before I opened the "Genuine Honda Parts" package. The packaging looked old, probably new old stock Western Hills Honda is known for.


Well, if that barcode behind the points is on the package, I don't think it would be NOS parts: the barcode thing started in the early 1990s on most products.  ???

Curious...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 07:12:28 PM »
I'm just 1.5mi from Western Hills Honda, if I ever get Hershel cornered I pic his brain ;D
Keep the Shiny side up!

1987 ZG1000 "King Crimson"
1972 CB750K2 "Stout"
1976 CB500T "Witch's Promise"
1973 CL450K5 Cafe Project
I'd rather go homeless than chromeless

People get maddest when I've told the truth.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.......
                                                                          Vito Corleone

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 10:38:54 PM »
I'm just 1.5mi from Western Hills Honda, if I ever get Hershel cornered I pic his brain ;D

Cool!
I'd love to shake that guy's hand, myself!  :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline nancy

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 11:59:39 PM »
Can Hondaman or anyone pass judgement for me on this option (see link below) from David Silver in UK please? Should I steer clear - or does the option of the back plate supplied with these Daiichipoints make them a better option. This set cost 28 british pounds.
Appreciate feedback.
regards
Mark

http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/graphics/parts/P30200300154_large.jpg

Offline axehole54

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 07:33:19 AM »
Maybe hondaman has heard of this? Someone told me there is a yellow box plate kit and a red box kit and one is better than the other i have a plate kit and its adjustment range is different from honda's?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2010, 11:14:18 PM »
Can Hondaman or anyone pass judgement for me on this option (see link below) from David Silver in UK please? Should I steer clear - or does the option of the back plate supplied with these Daiichipoints make them a better option. This set cost 28 british pounds.
Appreciate feedback.
regards
Mark

http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/graphics/parts/P30200300154_large.jpg

It's pretty hard to tell without seeing the little logos on the points.  :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2010, 11:18:43 PM »
Maybe hondaman has heard of this? Someone told me there is a yellow box plate kit and a red box kit and one is better than the other i have a plate kit and its adjustment range is different from honda's?

Lately we've seen a bunch on new vendors bringing out compatible parts for these bikes (yay!). I haven't seen the ones you're talking about, though. I do know that there are red box and green box steering head bearings: the green box ones don't hold up long. I recently installed some of the ones from Pyramid: the lower bearing has only 15 rollers in it! I had to make a 3mm spacer for it, too, as the race was very short. The top one is a KML unit, with a full complement of rollers like we've seen before. If these new ones are REAL hard, it will be OK: otherwise they might be short-lived like the 'green box' (soft) versions. We'll see!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 72hondacb750

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Re: Working with those [cheap] Daiichi points...
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 11:05:19 PM »
I'm a total noob when it comes to points but am learning as much as i can from this site .. Could you post a link to a site that sells good points? I bought cheap flimsy points from some random site and would love to replace those with something I can count on until I switch the bike over to electronic ignition.

Thanks.
72 CB750 cafe project