Author Topic: Shinigami - 71 cb500 frame w/550 engine (Read 4309 times)

manjisann · « **on:** October 11, 2009, 07:24:04 PM »

As my 650 build started to wrap up I was already thinking about what I wanted to do next. I saw many bikes in the local papers that I would have liked to pic up, but at the time had no cash. I sold some things I don't really use any more and ended up with $300 from it, which was what I paid 10 yrs ago so not a bad deal really. I had been toying with the idea of getting another cb500 or 550 and turning it into a cafe racer. Due to some issues with the original 650, I ended up with a second engine

and was thinking I could do some of the cool mods I've read about here. Anyhow, here's the bike I picked up for $300. It also came with some hondaline luggage and other bits that I'll be selling off to help fund this build. I haven't really decided any specifics yet, and I'll be reading Paulages thread for sure.

Brandon

yellowbirdrs · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2009, 08:12:32 PM »

Pretty sweet deal, great looking bike. Will be a nice project.
Good luck!

manjisann · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2009, 07:09:25 PM »

Well, as is customary with anything I do, my ideas and desires have continuously changed. I don't even remember exactly what the original plan was, I think it was kinda a nebulous "get a bike and decide then" type thing. So here are some of the things I've decided to do.

I'm giving it a shot at making my own tank from scratch. I've ordered the filler and petcock bungs, and pretty much everything else I'm going to make. I have to at this point stop and thank this forum and its members again, especially OhioCafeRacers for his how-tos on making a tank. Mine is going to be kinda boxy like some of the old cafe racers were, mainly because it is easier for me to fabricate straight lines with the limited machinery that I own.

I was really lucky a while back. I'm taking a metal sculpting class and had to buy some sheet metal for my project. The place I bought it from cut it about twice as big as I needed, and so they offered it to me for the same price if I wanted it. That was a serious no brainer, umm HELL YEAH I WANT IT

So I ended up with extra 16 gauge sheet metal. I realize this is pretty heavy gauge for a tank, but on the bright side, should hold up real well. The down side is forming the corners requires that I heat it up.

Several things I've noticed as I'm going along. I'd originally planned on making the tank about 9" wide, but I'm beginning to think I need to narrow it a bit. Luckily I've only cut and formed the sides, so I can narrow it out without wasting the metal. Another thing is it likes to bend itself ever so slightly backwards of the way I'm bending it, not a huge issue but not something I'd been expecting. The last thing, on the corners that I have to heat up, the bent edge sticks out way further than any other edges. I'm thinking this is due to the excess metal that would normally wrinkle being pushed out. No biggie, I'm going to have to do some fine grinding to get all the edges to meet anyhow. I included a pic of the propane "forge" I made to allow me to do this.

I have two options at my disposal for welding it together. I can either oxy/acetylene weld it, or Mig it. On my last build I had to patch in a large piece of metal using my mig and I did manage to get it air tight before I sealed it, so I'll be using the mig again this time around. 16 gauge metal isn't too bad to weld if you stitch weld it. I already did a practice piece and it came out really well.

Doing the tunnel is going to be the really challenging part I believe mainly because of the coils. I still haven't decided if I want to use the stock mounting stubs, or fabricate some other way of attacking the tank. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

This tank is currently set to be 24" long, which will cause it to end about middle of the air box area, good thing I'm planning on making my own seat and tail eh

The only concern I have is whether this might put my 250lb frame too far back on the bike and make it prone to wheelies. That may sound fun to some, but my ultimate goal is stability and safety, as well as speed. If it's too back heavy then it won't track right I'm thinking.

Well, here's pics of the mess so far, enjoy.

Brandon

daewon774 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2009, 07:50:42 PM »

Can't wait to see how your tank comes out.

And, have you thought about doing a 650/550 hybrid engine, or throwing that 650 engine into this frame?

Good luck on this build, I'll be following it for sure!

moham · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2009, 09:34:25 PM »

I don't thInk seeing the coils is a big deal if you didn't want to go crazy on a relief the frame tube.

And what kind of sushi is shinigami? Mackerel? No, that's saba... Shark? Eel? Now I'm hungry...

manjisann · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2009, 04:49:21 AM »

daewon774, the current thought is to put the 650 top end, crank and up, into the 550 lower. I'm mainly doing it because i have the parts already, and because I'll learn a lot along the way. Which is the whole reason I work on bikes really

Moham, the story for the name is, I wanted to name the bike Hells Handbasket, but the wife forbade me naming any of my toys something with Hell in it. So I did the next best thing and named it in a foreign language. Shinigami is Japanese for Death God. It seems strangely appropriate for a bike I'm gonna be trying to break the Ton on, hopefully just not prophetic

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2009, 07:59:07 PM »

WOW, got the fuel and petcock bungs in today, that was really fast of them. I love eBay. Since I had the bungs I decided to go ahead and cut out the top of the tank. I don't think I could cut a perfectly straight line if my life depended on it, but I'll blame the jigsaw that I was using, it's easily as old as I am

Phew, I feel better about that. I marked out where all the bends would be and where the fuel filler bung went. Hmmmm how should I cut this out. The jigsaw was out, it turns wider than your average 18wheeler. I did try a hole saw, but that didn't work. At this point I decided to use the oxy/ace torch that I've come to appreciate. It did a good job, sadly the user did not. The whole was a wee bit too big once I removed the slag that was keeping it from seating. These are weld in bungs so I welded it in with my mig as I'm running really low on acetalyne, and I don't have the right sized tip for this thin metal anyhow. After a little grinding I think it will be ok. I'm going to have to buy a cap and pray that it will fit still and I didn't some how warp it. If I plan on doing this too much, I may need to seriously consider buying a tig and learning how to use it. But for now I am happy with the tools I have.

After getting the filler bung in I bent up the top, tacked one of the sides on and started forming the two pieces together. At this point I realized a few things. First, OhioCafeRacers made this look wayy to easy. His looked like the went together like a lovely jigsaw puzzle. Mine on the other hand looked like something, well, it didn't fit near as well as I had hoped. If I do this again, I may try 18 gauge just to see if it is easier to form. After a fair amount of light hammering and prying to get things to match up I welded the entire side.... and blew a couple holes in it, DAMN. Well, no biggie, I mig welded them up (yes, you can mig weld holes, it's just not a lot of fun, and you have to be using thicker metals). Once the entire seam was welded I ground it down. It's not a perfectly straight line like I had been hoping for, but seeing as how this is my first time, I'm please with it. The real trick is going to be getting the other side on and hoping that they line up. I'll try and post pictures tomorrow, but I ran out of time tonight. I'm excited and scared, excited that it will work, and scared it'll look like something the cat coughed up. Only time will tell.

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2009, 07:33:24 PM »

I now have both sides of the tank attached. I am getting really good at mig welding up holes when I blow them in it

(now we know why I am not real keen on trying to make my own frame from scratch

) It looks a lot better once I stuck it on the bike, still toying with the idea of renaming the bike "Lego Racer" since the tank is so square. It's growing on me though.

Here's some pics enjoy!

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2009, 07:42:49 PM »

The above with the tank on it, the tank isn't finished, I haven't done the underside yet, and it will be at least another inch forward, I just wanted to see how it looked. I think it looks encouraging

First couple pics are of the inside welds. I am going to have to admit my lack of welding knowledge, but I think for the most part they are acceptable. My priority is ensuring that there is penetration and it is melded together.

The third pic just shows some of the gaps that I have to work out before I can weld. The beauty of working with metal is it is maleable, if it don't fit, whack it with a hammer till it does

The truth is it actually takes more finess than brute strength.

I start out with just a few tack welds in the places that match up really well and then work it from there. Ideally the thing would fit together like a well made puzzle, but my skills aren't that good. I think it also hurts that I made the pattern entirely from scratch as apposed to having an existing tank to work with.

I'm open to suggestions on either the best way to work metal or anything else constructive. One thing I'm noticing is it is pretty close to the top of the engine. I'll have to put the stock tank back on and see if there is more clearance or not, would really hate to make a giant bomb and not know it till it was too late (although in all honesty, as long as it doesn't hurt other people I can think of worse ways to go

)

Thanks,

Brandon

Alan F. · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2009, 08:16:26 PM »

Quote from: manjisann on November 07, 2009, 07:42:49 PM

I'm open to suggestions on either the best way to work metal or anything else constructive.

I don't think you're doing much wrong, I've thought about building tanks myself but haven't undertaken one yet, so my hat's off to you.
I'd agree that you should place a few tack welds where things line up nicely and then break out the hammer, are you using any kind of dolly behind the sheetmetal to have something to hammer against? That'd help keep everything in the shape you want.
You can get some pretty cheap imported autobody hammer and dolly kits that should do the trick for you, here's a link to one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=31277

I picked one like this up at a flea market years back for $15 and it's come in handy a few times. Just smooth the surfaces with a sander before using anything, they come pretty rough...

manjisann · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2009, 01:36:26 PM »

I actually have that set and it does come in useful. I think it's mainly just a matter of practice and experience.

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:38:20 PM »

I've been able to do a little more on the tank in the last little bit. I stuck the top on the bike and kinda mocked it up how it would be and sat in roughly the position I expect to be in using the passenger pegs to imitate rearsets. From this I learned that I needed to indent the rear of the tank more, as my knees were hitting it, and I learned that I really don't like where the pegs are. I think ultimately I will be removing the brackets that hold the rearsets in place and welding on some different brackets that are just a touch lower.

By now the tank looks like some horrible jigsaw puzzle put together by a mad man, but I have hope. Mainly I'm hoping that with a touch of body filler in the right spots it will look good. The boxy style is kind of growing on me and I think once the seat and tail are done it will bring it all together.

I'm still struggling with what colors to paint it. I was thinking of trying something really modern and different with candy colors on the frame and everything, but was read another post ( I think it may have been Squirly's cafe build post, but my memory is not that great with this kind of stuff) and someone pointed out that lighter colored frames and such will show road grime more and no amount of cleaning will get everywhere. This got me thinking that with as lazy as I am, a darker frame color at least, would be best. The upside is I have plenty of time to decide as I have no real target date to get this done by. For now it's just do it as I have the funds and time (a seriously different pace from my last build

)

I removed the original bracket that held the back tab of the tank as well as the hinge for the seat and did my best to grind it smooth without removing too much of the frame tubing. My biggest concern is that I will unknowingly weaken the frame and it will fail catastrophically at some point in the future. Realistically since I have no plans on actually racing things bike, and I ride pretty tamely I seriously doubt it'll be an issue. I'd like to break the Ton on this bike at least once, but that's just to be able to say I've done it on a bike that I modified (or on a motorcycle in general.)

Here's some pics of the bracket areas after I used a high speed cuttoff wheel to carefully remove the welds as best I could and then I used a flap disk to smooth it all out.

manjisann · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:45:41 PM »

Once I get the tank finished I'll weld in some metal to bolt the rear of the tank to. Here's some pics of the tunnel part of the tank, it's just tacked together. Once I have all the pieces cut out and looking right, I'm going to cut the tacks, wirewheel the edges to remove the millscale and then stitch weld it all together. I gain more and more respect for people who make tanks and make them look good, it is an amazing art. I've learned a ton of stuff doing this that makes me realise how I'd do it differently in the future. I guess that's part of the learning process though. After doing this though, I really would like to learn how to TIG weld, and just weld better in general.

The tunnel isn't complete, I still have several more pieces to cut out.

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:55:33 PM »

Today as I was working on the tank, I was thinking about the engine and exactly what I want to do to it. I started this build thinking I wanted to hybrid the 550 bottom with the 650 top, kind of a not so souped up version of what Paulages did with his bikes engine. However, I'm wondering if this is what I really want to do. Aside from the learning aspect of it, I'm not sure what the point of doing such a thing would be for me. I have no real intentions of racing it, and as long as it gets me from point A to point B and looks good while doing it, that's what I'm really after (wow, I'm so shallow

) The other thing about hybriding them was to keep the kickstarter. However, from what I've read in a few other posts, once I install rearsets, the kickstarter won't really work due to the obstruction. Plus I'm wondering if I really want to bite of the whole getting it custom machined and all. Granted, Paulages and a few others have already figured out all the really hard stuff, but for me at least, it's still a daunting thought. I'm currently thinking I may just strip down the spare 650 motor I have, paint it up real nice, and slap it into the frame. Anyone want to share some thoughts or opinions on this? I have plenty of time to decide, and one thing that may force me to decide one way or the other, is when I tear into the engines. I haven't heard either one of them run, so for all I know they are rusted solid (although the PO of the 500 was pretty sure the only thing keeping it from running was the cam being timed wrong.)

Thanks for reading my babbling thoughts

Brandon

moham · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:23:26 PM »

Brandon, what kind of mig set-up are you using? Curious cos I might be buying soon...Been looking hard at the millermatic 180.

bucky katt · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »

if you use the entire 650 motor you WILL lose the kick starter, i cant live without mine

manjisann · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2009, 04:01:06 AM »

Moham, there's a couple threads out there about migs

I'm using a Lincoln Electric HD 180 (I swear the HD stands for Home Depot, but whatever) and I love it. I bought mine used, which probably wouldn't have been so bad had I ever used one before but I hadn't and the PO had goofed a few things up. So in the end, I only saved a small amount. I'm not saying don't buy used, but have some idea of how they should look and work if you do (I didn't, do now

) I'm taking a Metal Sculpting class right now and I've had the opportunity to use some millermatics, and liked them just as well as the Lincoln. In my mind the biggest difference between the two is cost. I've noticed that the Millermatics parts tend to cost a bit more than the Lincolns. The guns for example, I know the Lincoln gun can be had for about $100ish on eBay, whereas the Millermatics are around $300 (don't quote me, I'm going from memory, and my memory isn't always the best.) I've also looked at the spool gun for doing aluminum and I know that those ones have a huge cost difference, the Lincoln can be had for about $150 (and it uses the same tips and such as the regular gun which is a bonus in my book) whereas the Millers about $300 or more. I'm not sure about quality with these guns, they seemed fairly comparable to me. So, to summarize my rambling, I don't think you could go wrong with either Lincoln or Miller, my experience is they are both quality outfits. As a side note, if you find a Hobart for a decent price, everything I've read says they are on par with the above mentioned companies, but I have no personal experience with them.

Quote

if you use the entire 650 motor you WILL lose the kick starter, i cant live without mine

Do you leave your light on a lot?

I'll have to decide at some point what I want to do. I really like the 650's top end, but the 550's bottom end is nicer looking I think, or at least more classy. Hmm, decisions decisions.

Brandon

moham · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2009, 06:31:17 AM »

Thanks for the info on the welders, I have done a lot of comparisons and keep looking for a used one to come. The quality models hold their value really well, though, so aren't really discounted that much used.

To get back to your bike, I suggest the following: if your goal is to have a fun bike to zip around on, stick with the 550 motor and spend some money on head work to give it a little punch. 650 cam, stage 1 or 2 porting, cylinder hone, new rings etc could keep you in the $500 range and be good cost/value ratio. Spend a couple more dollars on improved ignition (dyna s, coils, wires, all easy bolt-on), new exhaust. With these time tested improvements, I think you'd see good bang for buck and not go crazy with uncharted mods that may/may not work. I believe paulages has a few bucks in his 718 motor.

manjisann · « **Reply #18 on:** November 26, 2009, 07:34:46 AM »

Quote

if your goal is to have a fun bike to zip around on, stick with the 550 motor and spend some money on head work to give it a little punch. 650 cam, stage 1 or 2 porting, cylinder hone, new rings etc could keep you in the $500 range and be good cost/value ratio. Spend a couple more dollars on improved ignition (dyna s, coils, wires, all easy bolt-on), new exhaust. With these time tested improvements, I think you'd see good bang for buck and not go crazy with uncharted mods that may/may not work. I believe paulages has a few bucks in his 718 motor.

Sounds like some good advice, I will definately think about it. Seems to me that one of the members on here does porting and valves and I've read good things about his work (crud, can't remember his name off hand, but I'm sure I can find it using searchfu.) I would be interested to get it running with just the 550 cam and then swap it to the 650 and see what the difference is. Well, all things to think about.

Thanks,

Brandon

mystic_1 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 26, 2009, 08:34:37 AM »

Since you seem to be having a good time working on the sheet metal let me suggest that going light on engine changes will allow you to finish the project sooner and cheaper, and you can always come back and do the engine mods later, so my suggestion would be to just get one or the other motor working in a fairly stock configuration for the time being.

Looking forward to the rest of your build.

mystic_1

manjisann · « **Reply #20 on:** November 26, 2009, 10:19:45 AM »

Mystic_1 I've been thinking along the same lines. One of my concerns is I'll make some sort of modification that will cause steering issues or something, but not realize it till after I've spent bunch of time and a bit of money on a nice paint job only to realize I need to change something. I'm leaning towards getting the frame mods out of the way, getting her running, riding her for a bit just to get a feel and make the fine adjustments to the frame, then strip it all the way down to do the nice paint job and the engine work. Should be interesting to see where I end up

And you are right, working the sheet metal has been fun and very educational, wouldn't want to do it for a living, but for a hobby, it's not too bad.

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:44:50 PM »

Well, here's more pics of the underside of the tank coming together. I would kill for computer cut metal, mine doesn't fit together as nicely as I'd like, but it's all close enough that with a minimal amount of hammering it welds up. It's funny, I'm getting really good at welding holes closed. It seems like just when I think I'm getting the hang of it I blow a hole in it

oh well good practice. I am getting more done with nicer welds and fewer holes, but I've got a LOOOOONNNNGGGGG way to go before I'm a welder.

For anyone who decides to attempt to make a tank with a mig welder, just be aware there is as much time spent grinding as welding. I sometimes have to make a weld, grind, see holes or undercutting, weld, grind, weld, grind. I probably don't have to be as picky as I am being, but my goal is to have the tank water tight BEFORE I use the POR15 sealer. I dunno, it's probably petty pride, but hey, if you don't take pride in your work, whats the point of doing it?

manjisann · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2009, 04:56:59 PM »

Well, the tank is 98% done now, just need to pressure test it for leaks (fix those if I find any) and weld on the stuff to attach it to the frame.

This was an interesting learning experience, and this poor tank has seen several revisions. I think once I get the tail section built and get a fairing for her, she'll look really good.

Thoughts, comments?

Thanks,

Brandon

manjisann · « **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2010, 05:19:48 PM »

Been a while since I posted on this build, and in truth not much has happened to it. Here's what HAS happened though. I traded the 550 engine (turns out it may have been a 550 bottom with a 500 top??) to Soos for some of his modified pistons to make a 650 engine into a 750. Turn out the engine I was originally planning on using for this bike is now in my other bike since its engine chewed a hole in one of the pistons. I'm in the process of tearing the buggered engine down to see what parts are useable and what parts are going to have to be replaced.

I've also decided against using the tank I built. It was excellent practice but in all honesty I just don't like how it looks. I have a 79 650 tank that is a bit dinged up and I'm seriously toying with the idea of stretching it using another one donated by Soos since the bottom looks a bit like swiss cheese. I may also use part of the tank Soos gave me to make the tail section, but I haven't completely decided that yet.

I'll post pics once I have something slightly more interesting than the pics of the buggered engine, which can be seen in the other build thread.

Brandon

cbsrawesome · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2010, 02:36:44 PM »

well, they say practice makes perfect. you're a braver man than most trying to build your own tank. will keep a lookout for your new pics.

shinigami? which zanpakutou are you going to model this bike after?

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Author Topic: Shinigami - 71 cb500 frame w/550 engine (Read 4309 times)