Author Topic: How does the CB400F Alternator work?  (Read 7616 times)

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Offline noexit

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How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« on: October 14, 2009, 09:46:00 PM »
On the CB400F, there's a stationary stator

and a rotor that looks like this.


This looks completely different than my CB350's alternator which has permanent magnets in the rotor. How does the CB400F's alternator work?

Offline paulages

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 10:16:07 PM »
the rotor is magnetized by 12V current supplied by the battery, via the stationary brushes in the cover. the magnetized rotor is thereby polarized, and creates an alternating current when it passes the windings in the stator. same concept, it just uses an electromagnet instead of a permanent magnet.
paul
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1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
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1972 NORTON Commando Combat
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Offline bryanj

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 10:26:27 PM »
Paul you got that wrong, that is the 650 and 750DOHC,
In the 350,400,500,550 and 750 SOHC the coil in the middle produces a magnetic field, strength of which is governed by the regulator. The wavy slot in the rotor moves the field accross the outer stator coils producing AC current which is converted to DC by the rectifier
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline paulages

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 10:29:06 PM »
yeah, sorry.. the brushes are different in the 650, but the concept it the same, no? i was trying to say what you said better.
paul
SOHC4 member #1050

1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 11:30:39 PM »
The coil in the center is a field coil.  When energized, it creates a magnetic field.  The metal mass of the rotor becomes the "core" of the electromagnet, and becomes magnetized.  The shape of the rotor then presents alternating magnetic poles to the stator and this induces voltage and alternating current in the stator.
The slots are in the rotor so that a north magnetic pole can be followed by a south magnetic pole, then north again, etc.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 05:40:52 AM »
yeah, sorry.. the brushes are different in the 650, but the concept it the same, no? i was trying to say what you said better.


No brushes in this type of alternator.  The field coil is completely stationary.  In the 650 and DOHC 750 the field coil is inside the rotor and spins.

mystic_1
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Offline noexit

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 11:06:57 AM »
Interesting. Any benefits/negatives to this type of alternator besides not having to worry about demagnetization of permanent magnets and brush wear? Why isn't this type of alternator more common?

Offline bistromath

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 11:21:55 AM »
It's heavy, and not very efficient compared to a PM alternator.
'75 CB550F

Offline mystic_1

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 02:01:22 PM »
Don't most automotive alternators work like this?

No brushes and no demagnetization worries are the main benefits I think.

mystic_1
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Offline bryanj

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2009, 03:11:17 AM »
All automotive alternators have brushes and most internal reg/rec units, benefit of alternator as against dynamo is smaller brushes as current flow is less
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Bodi

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Re: How does the CB400F Alternator work?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 06:58:43 AM »
The benefit of a field coil alternator is that it makes voltage regulation relatively easy, you control the field coil current and that directly controls the output power, so the system can control the battery voltage to keep it charged and avoid boiling it dry.
If you don't want electric start you can skip the battery and use magneto ignition plus an AC lighting power alternator. Most old two strokes work this way.
A permanent magnet alternator/dynamo/generator produces full power all the time.
The bike designers can exactly (approximately) match the alternator output to the load power - that means extra output coils switched in when the lights are turned on: 60's Japanese bikes did this pretty well but old Italian bikes are infamous for the bizarre switchgear and wiring nightmares they managed the job with. This approach requires that the electrical load stays the same, no extra lights and such are allowable. Plus the match is never exact and batteries rarely last more than a season.
One can dump the extra power into a heater, Joe Lucas liked this approach via a simple 14V zener diode on a big heat sink: Honda does much the same (a bit more elegantly) on some GL models. This sinks engine horsepower into heat though. The GL1100 had a few HP to spare and was not a sportish model anyway, Honda didn't care about the weight, cost, or wasted power.
PM rotors are heavier and more expensive to make than the field coil type, plus in the 70's some metals and minerals used in high strength magnets got very expensive.
When making the CB fours apparently they did care about lost engine power and extra weight.
The induced field system (as pictured) avoids the complex, costly, and troublesome brushes and slip rings but is less efficient at turning electrical power into the necessary rotating magnetic fields. The alternator structure can be thinner too, no room needed for brushes.