Author Topic: Electronic Ignition  (Read 7281 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mick7504

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,728
Electronic Ignition
« on: November 03, 2009, 04:26:37 AM »
Has anyone tried these ignitions from CMSNL?
Instruction Manual Download.
www.cmsnl.com/downloads/Ignition_En_rev_b.pdf
If I was you
I'd be worried about me.

Offline KB02

  • Take it easy there, Sonny, I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,757
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 04:51:12 AM »
What's the cost of this unit?
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

Join the AMA today!!

My project thread Part I: K8 Project "Parts Bike"
My project thread Part II: Finishing (yeah, right) touches on Project "Parts Bike"

Offline Seamus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 96
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 05:13:05 AM »
Is'nt this a bit like a Boyer?

Priced at 133 Euros.

If it works it could be a good buy, but again does not Hondaman offer something like this?

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,594
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 05:55:59 AM »
http://www.cmsnl.com/downloads/Ignition_En_rev_b.pdf
Here you'll find the technical description for that ignition, the ACCENT ELZ2 for CB350 - CB750. You can order it also from the German SOHC club. If you're a member it costs  € 90,-. Non-members pay € 150. It works with a magnet. If you have non-standard coils, like 3 Ohms instead of 5 Ohms, you must order another rotor. That rotor will provide a dwell angle of 110 degrees, instead of 180 degrees. Mention this when ordering. BTW contrary to popular believe, there's no need for extra dwell than standard.
Although people have claimed it works well, I personally am a bit sceptical. That circuitry comes right in the spot where vibrations are strongest and temperatures highest (apart  from the combustion chambers ofcourse). Hondaman's circuitry is in a safer location. His is a transistorized ignition. Basically it's a switch.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 06:29:45 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,476
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 06:46:22 AM »
Generally speaking, the electronic units like these that I have seen failed were due to the heat (and on some bikes, vibes) that comes from being so close to the engine.

The electronic components used for triggering purposes must be severely restricted (in power applied) at the 250 degree temperatures found in that area to prevent internal meltdown (literally!). In addition, solder, which is not terribly mechanically strong, will "migrate" away from the metal component legs and contacts when heated a little, then cooled, over and over. Eventually, the solder becomes granular and the contact area diminishes until an open circuit occurs on the PC boards somewhere. This was the biggest item I used to see on the old-style Dyna S units (they are somewhat better, now), and all of the Boyers that I have seen failed, and the several Martek units I have post-mortemed. (BTW: one of my professional skills is Electronic Failure Forensics.)

This problem is one of the stumbling blocks I'm having with the LED timing light add-on for my Ignition: although it only runs when you're actually checking the timing, the tiny PC board has still shown these same symptoms within a few months of being installed onto the points plate. So, I'm having to either spot-weld the components together (which can damage them internally), or remote them somehow from the engine (which I really don't want to do...). It's a gnarly issue!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline pangloss

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • CB500 K2 1975 NZ model
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 07:48:14 AM »
Had one of these in my 500-4 for two years... NO problems..  Have run the bike up and down the Stuart Hiway (Darwin~Alice ) a couple of times and buzz around Darwin all the time.. . 

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 08:02:52 AM »
Last time I adjusted my points it was 2004. I can live with adjusting points every 5+ years.

That being said, I did a transistorized ignition for my Sanglas bike. Reason being, points for that bike are almost unobtainable.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,476
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 08:10:42 PM »
Last time I adjusted my points it was 2004. I can live with adjusting points every 5+ years.

That being said, I did a transistorized ignition for my Sanglas bike. Reason being, points for that bike are almost unobtainable.

What's a Sanglas bike?  ???
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline lordmoonpie

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,053
  • Feal the Fear and do it anyway...
    • Moonpie
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 01:18:17 AM »
Boyer Bransden will offer something similar but much better location options. My transistor box on the 750 is under the petrol tank, on my 450 it was under the seat. On the 450 I set the boyer up and raced it for 9 years without a single tweak to the ignition. Oh and they're cheaper too  ;D
1994 Ducati 888 SP5
1951 Ducati 50cc Cucciolo
1981 Yamaha XV750 SE

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 04:00:56 AM »
Last time I adjusted my points it was 2004. I can live with adjusting points every 5+ years.

That being said, I did a transistorized ignition for my Sanglas bike. Reason being, points for that bike are almost unobtainable.

What's a Sanglas bike?  ???


Sanglas was a spanish bike marque, that ended production in 1982.

Offline mick7504

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,728
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 04:48:51 AM »
Last time I adjusted my points it was 2004. I can live with adjusting points every 5+ years.

That being said, I did a transistorized ignition for my Sanglas bike. Reason being, points for that bike are almost unobtainable.

What's a Sanglas bike?  ???


Sanglas was a spanish bike marque, that ended production in 1982.
That is interesting.
I did a search and found this.
It will need to be translated by Google from Spanish.
http://www.clubsanglascatalunya.com/historia.htm
There is mention on another site that Yamaha took over the company in 1981.
Did anything eventuate after the takeover?
If I was you
I'd be worried about me.

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,766
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 05:54:30 AM »
Anything can fail, and the points area is rather hot. Electronics can be designed for high temperatures though, there are many machines in environments with high temps that use a lot of electronics.
I have a Martek still going fine after 20+ years in service, on a 400 that runs pretty dang hot. I have a finned points cover mounted on a paper insulating gasket, I hoped this would keep the air space behind it a bit cooler. May have helped? The electronics are potted in epoxy or something, providing vibration resistance.

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 06:10:57 AM »
Yamaha bought Sanglas in 1981. I have 3 sanglas bikes. Two of them had Yamaha XS400 engine, it was a deal that Sanglas made with Yamaha, with the authorization of spanish government, to import engines from Japan. The buyout happened later.

If you make a search by "Sanglas" in the forum you will find quite a few posts by me, I have posted in the past several pictures of my bikes.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,476
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 06:58:14 AM »
Anything can fail, and the points area is rather hot. Electronics can be designed for high temperatures though, there are many machines in environments with high temps that use a lot of electronics.
I have a Martek still going fine after 20+ years in service, on a 400 that runs pretty dang hot. I have a finned points cover mounted on a paper insulating gasket, I hoped this would keep the air space behind it a bit cooler. May have helped? The electronics are potted in epoxy or something, providing vibration resistance.

Wow, that's the longest-lasting Martek I've ever heard of!
About 6 years ago, I received 5 Martek 440 units in one year from riders who had suffered failures since 2000 or so, each one had switched to Dyna and gave me their old units to see if I could make "good" ones out of the pieces. But, the electronics on every one (power transistors) had unsoldered itself, which was the failure point. This was also coincident with the RoHS switch in the electronics industry globally, and I suspect some manufacturers had (have?) not yet re-engineered their products to cope with the new solders. They don't work as well as the old ones, especially at holding things together.

But then, I inherit most of these units AFTER they have failed. I am occasionally hired by companies and other folks to 'disect' these gadgets to see what went wrong, or why they failed (that's long been part of my career job...).

As an example of the RoHS changes: when I designed my own ignition unit, I made it such that upon (proper) assembly it will run perfectly WITHOUT any solder. And, I built 2 units to prove it out, running them on a test setup for months on end and looking for any potential damage that normally would be hidden under the solder. After I was satisfied with the arrangement and techniques, I made the final PC board design it has today. So, I have a high confidence that the common solder failure won't hit mine. But then, this 'stuff' comes from working with electronics since Bell Labs introduced the Transfer Resistor (later dubbed "transistor") in the 1950s: my dad brought home some of the very first military versions and taught me how they worked when I was just 7 years old!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline Raul CB750K1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,881
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 08:51:34 AM »
When I studied electronics, I remember we were tought that for high-vibration and harsh environments, wire wrapping was preferred over soldering.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,476
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 08:13:31 PM »
When I studied electronics, I remember we were tought that for high-vibration and harsh environments, wire wrapping was preferred over soldering.
That was certainly true in the Apollo era (1962 to 1976 or so). That whole technology is almost gone, now! It's actually cheaper to design a whole integrated circuit on SPICE or one of the other computer-aided platforms than it was to develop a single PC board system on wire wrap. Man, I did a lot of those boards and pins!  :P I built them for oilfield applications in the 1980s, but by the end of that decade even the tools were becoming hard to find.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline AshimotoK0

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 597
  • CB400/4, 69 CB750K0, '69 CB250SS, CB350K1 CB500K0
Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 01:23:55 PM »
My brothers engineering company has a working Cincinnati Cim-X machining centre which is the same age as my 750K0 (Oct '69) All of the machines massive cabinet backplane is wire wrapped in a jungle of yellow wires. still working after 40 years!!
I have a Boyer Bransden on my 400/4 and points on the 750K0. From comments on this site would it be better to swap systems so that the Boyer is fitted to the 750?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:27:05 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.”