Author Topic: Swing arm (Yes I searched)  (Read 2979 times)

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Offline BigBoi

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Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« on: November 09, 2009, 04:54:34 PM »
 ;)

Hey all,

I'm working on getting the swing arm back together. I traded my old one (weld was letting go) and so I wasn't able to take it apart. My new one is currently empty. Now I've done some reading and know that I need some bronze bushings. Do I also need a collar to go inside?

I understand Hondaman does rebuilds, but it would be expensive for me to send it to him from Canada. Has anyone used the bronze bushings from Partsnmore?

I'm not sure if there's a walkthru somewhere for rebuilding one of these. Can anyone point me in the right direction? The diagram attached makes it seem straight forward, but in reading, it may be a little tricky.

1972 CB750K by the way...

Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 04:56:35 PM by BigBoi »

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 05:21:52 PM »
Yep, there is a collar that goes inside between the bushings. There are 3 parts listed that go between the arm and frame, felt washer, dust cap and thrust washer. The bushing from P+M with the flange may be usable without the extra washers etc. ( anyone know for sure? ) or the plain bronze bushings and the above parts.....
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 05:37:43 PM »
Which bushings from PartsNmore are you referring to? Some of theirs are flat wrong, others fit poorly and will need you to rework them to make them come out right.

The ones with flanges on the outside from PartsNmore are not for the K2: they are supposed to be for the K5 and later bikes (but fit poorly).

The K2 has 2 straight bushings, which are 1.775" long, 0.8430" ID before insertion, and must be inserted 0.200" to 0.238" below the tube's ends. Final installed ID is 0.8422". The difficult part: the tube on the swingarm is not straight anymore: typically they are flared from the oringinal 1.0435" ID, which you'll still find near the inside "step" that you can see bored inside the tube, to about 1.0460" or even more at the outside end. Often, the tube is also oval or egg-shaped, with the widest part toward the front of the tube, from years of handling acceleration and braking. So, the new bushings need to be tapered or cut non-round to accommodate these errors.

If you simply install a round bushing, at best you will have to gently ream (or hone) it until the collar can pass through it: if your arm has a straight tube, this will work out OK. If not, it will have tight spots, bounded by loose spots, and the handling will return to its loose state pretty quickly (about 5k miles, typically).

In any case, I'd advise AGAINST Honda's own bushings at this time: since about 1989 or so, they have been made of powdered steel composite. Since the collar is also steel, this makes a steel-on-steel bearing, which is impossible to lubricate, no matter what lube you try (even the Machinery's Handbook warns against this worst-possible combination). And, the steels rust together very quickly from the condensation these arms accumulate, destroying the new collar from rust in about 2 years, judging from the arms I've seen.

The parts you will need are:
1. Bushings, most preferably bronze. SAE841 bronze is excellent, 9000 series (aka SAE600) is good if you lube on schedule.
2. Felt washers, which retain the grease inside and prevent water ingress from outside.
3. End caps (Honda calls these a "bush" in their parts fische).
4. The collar.
5. The long swingarm bolt with 2 grease zerks on the ends. I usually install Nortn American style zerks in place of the Japanese ones, so the grease will actually go in...

You can see all of these parts in the online parts fiche (like at KawasakiPartsNation.com, select Honda models).

I've been rebuilding them steadily since 2005 or so. This is just a compilation of what I have seen. You are correct about the shipping here: the last 2 that went back to Canada cost $38 and $54 in shipping! Pretty steep...
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 05:52:02 PM »
You are correct about the shipping here: the last 2 that went back to Canada cost $38 and $54 in shipping! Pretty steep...

Wow, mine was like $22 from Boston.

Offline 754

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 07:37:31 PM »
 Where in Canada are you?

 I can do them. You need a center sleeve. . A used sleeve may be able to be trued up, the bushings made to fit..

 They should be fit to the shaft anyway, if you buy them for universal fit they would be set up on loose side, defeats the purpose you could say..
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Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 08:18:10 PM »
just took mine apart last night, '72cb750k.  here's a pic of the inner sleeve, end caps, etc.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 09:16:19 PM »
just took mine apart last night, '72cb750k.  here's a pic of the inner sleeve, end caps, etc.

Check the collar for roundness and deep score marks. If it is 90% OK and can be hard-polished or ground to be even again, it can be re-used, if new bushings can be cut undersized to accommodate the smaller shaft OD (the hardness is about 0.008" deep, at best, minimum collar diameter must be larger than 0.835" in the end). I've found that about 20% of them are in this category, usually from well-maintaind K4 or earlier bikes (CB750, here...on CB550K before 1975 and CB500K, also). Most collars are seriously chewed up from lack of lube and rust entrance.

What are the large, dark washer-looking things in those cup washers? If they are felt, they don't belong there...the littler ones belong just inside the end caps, and there should be phenolic "top-hat"-like busings on the very ends of the arm's tube, holding in those skinny felt washers. Is that what those are? (Kinda hard to tell in the picture.  :-\ ).

See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline BigBoi

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 09:38:50 PM »

1. Bushings, most preferably bronze. SAE841 bronze is excellent, 9000 series (aka SAE600) is good if you lube on schedule.

Where would be your suggestion as to the best place to get good, proper fitting bronze bushings?

I'd love this question answered as well.

I'm in Ottawa, Canada.

How do I check if my pivot bolt is good? As long as it's straight? Also, if I pick up a collar from Honda and various other parts shown on the microfiche attached, will that be ok?

I realize the bushings from Honda are bad...so where can I find some good bronze ones?

Thanks again all...

Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2009, 04:09:35 AM »
the dark-collared items in my pic are the phenolic "top-hat" bushings.  mine was assembled like the pic:  swingarm bushing, then felt, then top-hat, then collar.

bike has 31k, and has been well-lubed from what i've seen during disass so far.  swingarm axle appears new, collar is stained, but no surface corrosion, w/mult OD measurements of .842/.844 at the bushing sites.  end caps have staining, no corrosion.  phenolic "top-hat" bushings look new. has 2 steel swingarm bushings ea side, each are about 18.5mm long.  

not much end play at the swingarm ends with wheel off, similar to an '81 cb750k i had (needle bearings rather than bushings on the swingarm).  otoh, my '78k and '77k had zero play.    
bobp
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:11:59 AM by shoemaniii »
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Offline kerryb

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 04:26:41 AM »
Thankyou for a great post...I just learned a lot.

My '78k seems to have no play at 21k miles.
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Offline ksmith0034

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 05:47:02 AM »
Does the new center sleeve have to be pressed in after new bushing s are installed or will it go in manually?
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Offline voxonda

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 05:55:41 AM »
Has to go in by hand and turn freely.

rob
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:57:27 AM by voxonda »
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 11:58:50 AM »
I bought the Parts & More bushings for a Honda 400F. I have a spare swingarm, and I'm trying to get it "right" before swapping it on the bike. The plastic bushings were a proper ba$tard to get out. The bronze ones are well oversize out of the box, outside the service limit. I know they'll compress a bit when pressed in, but I doubt if they will tighten up enough. The sleeve is in bad shape, worn oval. These sleeves are unobtainable.
So as far as an answer, I wouldn't trust the aftermarket bronze bushings and I respect HM's opinion on the new sintered steel ones. The best answer is to bite the bullet and have HM rework the assembly for you. There are needle bearing kits for the 750 but I've heard some horror stories about them.
And for me... do you renovate the little bikes too, Mark?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 06:42:46 AM »
I bought the Parts & More bushings for a Honda 400F. I have a spare swingarm, and I'm trying to get it "right" before swapping it on the bike. The plastic bushings were a proper ba$tard to get out. The bronze ones are well oversize out of the box, outside the service limit. I know they'll compress a bit when pressed in, but I doubt if they will tighten up enough. The sleeve is in bad shape, worn oval. These sleeves are unobtainable.
So as far as an answer, I wouldn't trust the aftermarket bronze bushings and I respect HM's opinion on the new sintered steel ones. The best answer is to bite the bullet and have HM rework the assembly for you. There are needle bearing kits for the 750 but I've heard some horror stories about them.
And for me... do you renovate the little bikes too, Mark?

I sure do, "B".  :D
If I can't get new collars or the like (I also work on the CB350/450 bikes quite a bit), I try to "refurbish" the old ones as best as possible. Honda has abandoned enough of these parts now that I'm going to start making them for sale, because essentially one kit could be made to fit the whole 350/450/500/550/750 family, I believe. They are that close in sizes that it could work. This 'kit' won't be cheap, as some special tools are required to do this work, so they will have to come with the package. There are enough requests coming in for this sort of thing that it might be worth the effort.

The next thing I'm doing is to offer fully rebuilt arms in an exchange program for an old one (or with some offset if an old one isn't forthcoming). I'll offer them in either Duplicolor Jet Black or primer (or just in junkyard attire, if the new owner is doing a custom job). It looks like these will be around $200, depending on year and paint.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 06:49:50 AM »
the dark-collared items in my pic are the phenolic "top-hat" bushings.  mine was assembled like the pic:  swingarm bushing, then felt, then top-hat, then collar.

bike has 31k, and has been well-lubed from what i've seen during disass so far.  swingarm axle appears new, collar is stained, but no surface corrosion, w/mult OD measurements of .842/.844 at the bushing sites.  end caps have staining, no corrosion.  phenolic "top-hat" bushings look new. has 2 steel swingarm bushings ea side, each are about 18.5mm long. 

not much end play at the swingarm ends with wheel off, similar to an '81 cb750k i had (needle bearings rather than bushings on the swingarm).  otoh, my '78k and '77k had zero play.   
bobp

You will probably find that the swingarm tube is flared where those steel bushings were pressed in. The OEM ones were phenolic, so yours have been replaced once already.

This is one of the issues that arises when I do these rebuilds.

The .842"/.844" readings on the collar that you cite are typical of a collar with half its life gone: but the .844" number is not correct. If you thoroughly scrub off that black stuff, you will find the collar is .842" or SMALLER, because brand new they are never larger than .8422". It will also be oval somewhat, typically about 0.001" or so, with it being narrower toward the front and back. This is the part that must be ground to round shape again. Sometimes hard polishing will do it: go slowly and you may be able to recondition it.

See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 12:21:27 PM »
thanks for the info, HM, much appreciated.  will lightly dress using fine sandpaper and see how it turns (no pun intended) out.
bobp

 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 10:02:19 PM »
thanks for the info, HM, much appreciated.  will lightly dress using fine sandpaper and see how it turns (no pun intended) out.
bobp

 

If you are fortunate to have access to a lathe, it will only take 3 minutes: use 100 grit paper. If not, you can save a LOT of time and effort by getting some 1/2" allthread rod (12" long piece) from Home Depot or Ace Hardware, and a couple of nuts. Snug the rod thru the shaft with those nuts and chuck one end into a 1/2" drill motor and have at it: this method will take maybe 5 minutes (3/8" might work, but is harder to center up the collar with...). The allthread can then be used (with big washers) when you go to pull/press the new bushings into the arm.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 11:48:09 AM »
no lathe.  got the oem steel/composite bushings out last night - used a touch of heat to expand the swingarm tube then drove 'em out.  can't determine any flare by calipers, PO may have installed replacements as i will:  bushings in the freezer and swingarm heated, press in by socket.  interesting that the collars are still available $42. 
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Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 04:48:59 PM »
I just pulled my swingarm off today. 
Thanks for the measurement numbers.  I'll get after it with the calipers tomorrow.
My bikes only got about ~29K on it and everything looked pretty good, the swingarm tube was well lubed with very little visible wear or corrosion.
I'm probably going to just clean it up and reassemble but I want to measure everything before I do.
I do need to replace the felts.
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Offline BigBoi

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2009, 02:57:26 PM »
Hi all,

Quick question. I was out at my local CB750 parts supplier today (just a guy that has a bunch of stuff) and he helped me out with a bunch of stuff. I brought my swingarm out which I cleaned and he installed two bronze bushings in it. My bike is a 72 but he installed the bronze bushings with the flange and provided me with the dust seal caps. I'm still planning on using my normal pivot bolt from my 72 (grease fittings on the ends). Is this going to be an issue? It looks like it fits right in the frame correctly. The bronze bushings are in perfect shape and the collar fit in snug but nicely. Everything looks round.

Thoughts? Comments?

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 05:51:14 AM »
So long as the pivot collar extends past the ends of the bushings by a small amount (don't remember the spec) you should be fine.  If the pivot collar doesn't extend past the bushings then your swingarm won't pivot.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing arm (Yes I searched)
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 09:31:02 AM »
So long as the pivot collar extends past the ends of the bushings by a small amount (don't remember the spec) you should be fine.  If the pivot collar doesn't extend past the bushings then your swingarm won't pivot.

mystic_1

Spec is 0.004" to 0.006" (0.1-0.13mm).
 ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).