Topic: Starter problems - 79 cb650

[dhinch279]

So I have a little problem. The starter will not engage.
When i pull it from the bike and jump it directly it spins with plenty of torque,
but when I put it back in and jump it directly, it tries really hard but will not turn the engine over.
I can pop start the bike and it will turn over but it will not start (thats another issue, but I am not addressing it in this thread) so I know that the engine is not seized up. I just can't get the starter to turn the engine over.
Any help would be fantastic, thanks

[Buber]

Why don't you search the forum before asking? It helps, y`know...

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=58409.msg632279#msg632279

And follow the link....

[dhinch279]

I already found that thread and I am already a member of hondacb650.com. My starter does not spin freely because the starter clutch won't engage. It doesn't spin at all like the engine is locked up, but it is not locked up because the engine will turn over when you try to pop start it. (as I said in my first post, the starter will spin once it is pulled out and jumped, so I know it works)

With the starter installed, when I jump the starter it makes a click, like the slack (if thats what you want to call it) between the gears tightens up, but doesn't turn over the engine.

When I pull the starter, I can put a screwdriver in there and move the starter gear counterclockwise, but it won't turn clockwise, maybe that is what it is suppose to do, I don't know. I can try to pull the Starter clutch, but I just don't want to do it if I don't have to or if it is something else.


But thanks for the information from Polska

[scunny]

have you got the starter wired correctly, if you haven't got a large enough cable run to the starter ,she wont turn the motor. try a jumper lead directly from the battery +ve to the starter. if you are still stumped I'll find my spare bits and check rotation for you

[Buber]

Hmm, then it means the the starter doesn't get enough juice. You will need to check all cable connections going to starter, as well as relay, and finally brushes on the starter.
This should help...
Good luck!

[dhinch279]

Thanks again for the info! Thats what makes this site so great,

Scunny - I tried to jump the starter directly on the bike, but I was using jumper cables with the same gauge wire so maybe I will try to get something bigger. If you have those parts laying around and can check it that would be great, if not, don't worry to much about it, I'll figure it out one way or the other.

Buber - I just pulled the starter, and the brushes look.... ok... if thats what you want to call it. So I did a little searching and found some new brushes... so we will see what happens when they get here. The relay just clicks alot when I put juice through it, so I have been bypassing it just to try to get the bike started. I also ordered a new battery just in case this one may not be strong enough. By the way, my brother lives in Poland, its a pretty nice little chunk of land you got there.

[Buber]

Thanks for the warm words... Been here and there, but prefer to stay home 
To the business - so you didn't try another battery??? That may be the clue. You can always pair it with a car battery (by power cables to your battery) and try that way.

Basically you need quite a lot of power (about 30 amps) to move the engine. Such power to transfer requires good connection. It may be that mechanically all is well, just that there's not enough amps being transmitted to the starter.

Keep trying, but try to be systematic - make sure that if you decided that some component is right, it s truly OK.

[Hush]

If the solenoid clicks it can only be low battery power or dirty/ bad connections.
At some stage you will probably want to remove the solenoid and the wires to it to clean the connections, I use a small steel-wire brush to clean them and then coat every bit in electronic-grease.
You are on the right track with jump starting from a car or another bike, if all works when jumped then blame your battery.
Will keep an eye on your progress mate so keep coming back to your thread and report your progress.

[dhinch279]

Ok, I guess I will give you guys some more details. The battery was shot when I bought the bike a couple months ago. So I have been using a car battery since day one. I went to the local ATV/Motorcycle shop to get a new one but they sold me the wrong one, so now I had to order one because they didn't have it in stock. So now I am waiting for the new battery.

Meanwhile, I am doing anything and everything I know of just to get it to turn over using the starter. (To all of you who have kickstarters... I envy you   )

Yesterday, I tore apart all of the connections from the starter to the relay (including all the little ones on the relay) to the battery. I lightly sanded them with 320 grit sand paper I had laying around, sprayed them with electrical cleaner (or whatever its called), and put them all back together. Put some juice to it... and still nothing.

I pulled all the spark plugs, just to make sure that it wasn't hydrolocked with fuel or something (happened to me once with my 1990 kaw ex500). But that didn't help either.

It has to be something easy that I am missing...

[dhinch279]

Well, the battery just came in at noon today... I will fill it and let it charge, so by tomorrow it should be ready to put in and end one part of this great mystery

[razor02097]

Electric motors can loose torque over time and if the permanent magnets get damaged, but usually the commutator gets dirty or the brushes wear excessively where the brush spring can't keep enough tension to make good contact.  Either way it sounds like you should start hunting for a new one or a shop to rebuild the one you have.

[Hush]

Can you turn the main motor over by putting it on the main stand and removing the right side engine cover, use a large socket to turn the motor over manually, is it free?
It comes down to either the starter motor does not have the power to turn the engine over or a connection is dirty enough to not allow a clean passage for the power.
The new battery may work for you, hopefully it does.
To activate the starter without using the solenoid just hook the battery up correctly and use a big steel screw driver to bridge the two solenoid poles.

[Bob Wessner]

To activate the starter without using the solenoid just hook the battery up correctly and use a big steel screw driver to bridge the two solenoid poles.

Reading through this thread.. sounds like my former problem. What happens when you bridge the contacts on the starter solenoid?

Mine was behaving just as you described on an intermittent basis. The frequency started to increase, and finally pretty much no elec. starter. The batt. and all electrics checked out finally arrived at it being the solenoid. Picked up a new one at Servhonda and all is well again. As a matter of fact, it turns over with far more umph than it ever has that I can remember. Worth a try. Good luck.

[dhinch279]

Victory is mine!.... well sort of. I bought the battery, but it didn't come with the acid, so I ran to the local auto parts store to pick some up. While I was there I picked up some new thicker battery cables and starter cable(not factory ones, I just made them work), because I decided that although mine were passing current it only cost me $12 to get all new cables.

I charged the battery all last night, woke up at 7am and started to put all the new wires in. After I was done doing that I hooked the battery up and hit the start button.... VROOOOOM. It fired right up... it revved really high, so I shut it down. Fired it up again and it idled for about 15 seconds or so before dying. Victory!

Now when I hit the start button, nothing happens. I have it narrowed down to the start button or the relay, because now if you jump across the relay terminals it will fire up. So the electrical demons are still possessing the bike, they just moved around a little bit

Thank you all for all of the information , I am still not 100% sure what the problem was, it was probably a combination of things, but between the battery, starter brushes(which I did sand and clean), and the new wiring... but it at least starts now.

I do have another question which is unrelated to the starter, so maybe I should start a new thread if so, let me know and I will, but now that the bike is turning over and running, it leaks oil pretty badly from the left side of the engine. It is a constant drip. Here is a picture:

[Bob Wessner]

Looks to be your alternator in the pic? Not familiar with the 650, but on the 750, there is some oil back there. If things are the same between the two, once you have a new gasket and cinch down the alt. cover, there will be no leak.

[Hush]

I'd try the new gasket as suggested but mine is fairly dry in there, might be a  wee leak coming from somewhere, may not be worth worrying about unless you are losing bucketloads.
If you now suspect the starter button, try not to dissasemble the handlebar switches too much unless you have very tiny fingers.
They are a pure #$%* to get back the way they should be.
You should be able to clean the contacts up without too much taking apart.

[BVCB650]

I still think it is the starter relay, and my stator doesn't have a gasket and it doesn't leak a drop.

[dhinch279]

I still think it is the starter relay, and my stator doesn't have a gasket and it doesn't leak a drop.

Ding Ding Ding! we have a winner, the problem lies in the starter relay, I tested the start button and it is transfering current as it should be. Why the starter relay decided to die the day I actually get the bike up and running I don't know, but I ordered a new one and hopefully that is the end of that problem.

The leak is coming from that little dowel type piece (I don't know what it is). I can wiggle it and there is a very very slight movement which is why it leaks. I don't know if it is suppose to do that or if I can grab it with some pliers and pull it out and re-seal it, or of I can do as some of you say and just get a new gasket and call it a day. I just don't want it to fill up with oil if it's not suppose to.

[Hush]

Glad you found the electrical problem, it just takes time and patience to sort these old girls out.
I've searched my manuals for information on that "dowel" thing but it doesn't get a mention, I'm guessing it is just a blank.
In that case I'd clean the area and then stick some form of sealer compound in there, loctite maybe?
You may need to lower the oil level in the sump temporarily just so it stops weeping while you fix it.

[dhinch279]

Glad you found the electrical problem, it just takes time and patience to sort these old girls out.
I've searched my manuals for information on that "dowel" thing but it doesn't get a mention, I'm guessing it is just a blank.
In that case I'd clean the area and then stick some form of sealer compound in there, loctite maybe?
You may need to lower the oil level in the sump temporarily just so it stops weeping while you fix it.

Thanks for checking out the manual for me, I started to search through the one on this fantastic website,
but I couldn't find anything either, and it takes much more time to look through the pages online
than it would if I had the actual book.

Just so everyone knows the severity of the oil leak. I put a spray paint can lid upside down to catch all of the oil and when I checked it first thing this morning, it was almost 2/3rds full. So I am afraid that even if I did get it on the road I would have to stop every 50 miles and add some oil.

[Hush]

Seal it up then with some form of sealer.

[dhinch279]

Here is an update.

I got the leak fixed. I just pulled on that little dowel with some pliers and it popped right out. Oil does come gushing out of there so be sure to put something under it to catch it. There is a little O-ring on the dowel, so I went to the local auto parts store and picked up a box of various size O-rings for $3 and found the one that fit... NO more leak!

Also... be sure not to push the dowel to far back into the hole because there is nothing that stops it so you can push it too far in and it can be a real pain to get back out.

[Hush]

Well done that man