Author Topic: Help me!  (Read 3269 times)

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cafetimmy

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Help me!
« on: November 20, 2009, 10:28:51 AM »
Quick question: I'm trying to get the bottom bearing retainer off of the steering neck of the bottom triple clamp. It seems to be jammed on pretty tight and i'm not sure how to get it off without damaging anything.  :-[  Any ideas???

Thanks
-Tim

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 01:34:03 PM »
What bike do you have?



Here's how I usually do it, using the steering stops as fulcrums with two large screwdrivers:

















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cafetimmy

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2009, 02:16:58 PM »
oops sorry its a 76 cb 550.
Thanks that's exactly wat i needed! looks to be off of the same bike or similar. Much appreciated

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 02:49:19 PM »
You can also cut a notch in that bearing race with a die grinder or a dremmel tool, then tap a screwdriver into the notch. The race will crack the rest of the way through with a little encouragement, then it slips off without effort. This is the very simplest way to remove one.
-Alan

cafetimmy

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 11:07:52 AM »
Thanks Alan i'm going to attempt this because the race really doesn't want to budge and a new one is only $14. Well worth taking the simple route!

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2009, 12:56:07 PM »
Don't replace the bearings with stock, instead get a set of tapered roller bearings (All Ball brand work well) and install those instead.  Much better.

mystic_1
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2009, 01:38:49 PM »
Don't replace the bearings with stock, instead get a set of tapered roller bearings (All Ball brand work well) and install those instead.  Much better.

mystic_1

+1

I love my tapered bearings.  I'm still so pleased I changed them (from ball bearings).  It made the bike feel like it was lighter.  
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85 Goldwing

Offline 754

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2009, 01:52:24 PM »
 The quickest way, is the tool I built.. takes 2 or 3minutes..

 ..too bad  I only made the one............. :o


 ..so far............................................................... ;)
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 01:58:18 PM »
I've got nothing against taper bearings.  Use em if you got 'em or want 'em.  But, comparing old worn ball bearings and their races to new tapered bearings is an exercise comparing apples to oranges.

To hear the unfair comparison testimonials on this forum, it's a wonder how the original ball bearings worked so well for over thirty years.
The original style ball bearings and races work fine for me as long as they are in good condition.  Like all bearings, they can wear out with time and use.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 08:43:28 AM »
Tapered roller bearings may be great overkill in comparison to the stock ball bearing setup from an engineering standpoint, but most manufacturers have gone to tapered rollers for one reason or another, I prefer them smply for ease of installation. New ball bearing races and balls should perform admirably if one chooses to install them. Worn original units will likely not.
-Alan

cafetimmy

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2009, 12:36:20 AM »
Well i already ordered the bearing race and a few replacement ball bearings so I think i'll leave the ball bearing set up on this bike. I'll be selling this bike off soon anyways to pay for college so hopefully down the road i'll get another cb and i can throw the tapered's on that one  :-\ 
By the way thanks again Alan I used a die grinder like you suggested and worked like a charm!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2009, 08:58:33 AM »
How would tapered bearings be considered overkill?

Are they horribly overdesigned compared to the standard bearings originally made for the bike? Is this another swingarm case of designing to a $1500 price point?
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 10:29:10 AM »
How would tapered bearings be considered overkill?
They have a load bearing capability far, far, in excess of what the steering neck will ever encounter.  The stock balls set up does too, just not nearly as wildly extreme as the taper bearings.

Are they horribly overdesigned compared to the standard bearings originally made for the bike?
yes.
By comparrison, you could commute to work in a million dollar motor home, a Hum Vee, or a moped.  Normally, you pick the part or tool adequate for the job.

Is this another swingarm case of designing to a $1500 price point?
If you build a million bikes and can save $1 on each bike... you can employ 10 more bean counters, or 100 more engineers.  ;D
I'm not clear what your swing arm issue is.  Remember, this bike was designed in the 60s.  Component cost differentials were likely quite different then, as CNC machines and high tech materials weren't nearly so prevalent.

I suspect one reason why taper roller bearings are so popular is that they have a much wider adjustment range due to their increased load capability.  It simply requires less skill to install and adjust those successfully than the ball type.  Not that either is that difficult, mind you.

How many of you with tapered roller bearings in the headstock have ever compared them with new properly adjusted ball rollers?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 11:45:46 AM »
TT, I always look forward to reading your posts.  You are a great asset to this forum.  Not only are you knowledgeable and frank, but you often add humor, albeit dry ;)

As always, thank you for your input. 

...on to the issue at hand..  If the stock balls set is far, far in excess of what the steering neck will ever encounter, why do they fail? 
Quote
They have a load bearing capability far, far, in excess of what the steering neck will ever encounter.  The stock balls set up does too, just not nearly as wildly extreme as the taper bearings.
In my case, I'd consider failure the "notch" at the straight ahead position.   

Is it purely a maintenance issue?  My ball bearings were in pretty bad shape at 17K miles.  I don't know how long they were bad (I got the bike with 17K) but I'd bet it was a while.  I hope to ride this bike more than 17K here forward.  The amount of time it took me to do the job seemed well in excess of the savings between ball and tapered bearings. 

I suppose an alternative could be to rotate all the bearing races 180 degrees instead of using any new parts.  It would be a pain in the neck but it seems rare that the balls themselves fail (harder than the races, right?)  Then, you'd be on "new" surfaces of the races. 

My vote remains for tapered though... call me old and tired if you will, but I don't want to re-do my K6 head bearings. 
K6
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 01:36:52 PM »
Any bearing can fail.  I have 550's with 20-30K on them and head bearings are still good.  When the balls rest in the same position on the races they wear a "pit".  Roller bearings will do this too.  Takes a bit longer with a roller because the bearing surface is larger.  We use the same style of roller bearing in airplane wheels.  If the plane is parked outside and stationary for too long.  The wind elements shake the plane but the rollers don't get repositioned.  Then they wear or "worry" a groove in the race and have to be replaced.  Same failure as the ball race in the SOHC4 headstock.

There is no maintenance schedule stated for the head bearings.  But, anyone taking apart an old bike has seen the grease dry out and congeal.  Bearing contact pressure then pushes out the grease from the contact area, leaving metal to metal contact and subsequent wear.  Once a small pit occurs, the balls register in the pit, and the problem exacerbates as new lube doesn't get pushed around much.

So, I speculate that it is largely a grease failure and lack of maintenance that caused your ball bearing issues. (I haven't seen your old bearings, of course.)

The balls type bearing "notches" much sooner if the adjustment pre-load is not kept up.  The preload distributes the load to all the balls rather than just the ones at the top rear and bottom front.  Was this where you found the notching on your old bearings?
Not only does the grease need to be replaced periodically but the pre-load needs to be readjusted occasionally, too, in order to distribute the pressure loads.

Any mechanism that is abused can fail.
Leave your tapered bearings loose, and deprive them of lubricant, and see if they last 10K miles without getting "notchy".  (Don't really do this if you wish to avoid early replacement.)

I did put tapered bearings on a Cb400 a while back (Honda wouldn't give me a better deal on the ball type, and I didn't have to wait for delivery on the tappered bearings they had in stock.).  Maybe it was the kit vendor I used (forget which it was), but I certainly didn't like the lack of water seal it gave for the lower race. Oncoming dirt, air, and water would easily force it's way in past the open end and wash out the lube.  I had to adapt/make/shim a rubber seal to give it long term viability.  This particular bike was neglected and the original ball races were quite notchy with the deepest wear at the top rear and lower front.  Yes, the pre-load was quite loose and probably had never been readjusted after the time it left the showroom floor, and 25 year old grease, to boot.  There was also some accident damage, as well, with the turn stops bent up.  P.O.s weren't very kind to that bike, even though it had low miles.
The bike was much more stable and a nicer ride with the new bearings.  But then, I didn't change new ball bearings for new roller bearing, either.  So, I can't testify that roller bearings outperform ball bearings in an even comparison.

Lastly a bit of a correction.  I said the roller bearings were "far, far in excess".  I meant the wording in the following sentence to imply that the stock ball arrangement was only "far in excess".  Certainly the rollers will take a larger load than the ball type.  But, the application requirements are well below the capabilities of either.

The fable of Noah and the Ark should show the while having plenty of water is a good thing, a lot more may not be of much real benefit.

Thanks, for noticing the humor.
Cheers,




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 02:09:40 PM »
Based on the condition of my chain and tires when I bought the bike... I'd say the bearings in the steering head were never maintained (bingo).  I was really glad to see the inside of the engine looking pristine but you'd be right in wondering why I know what the inside of the engine looks like.   :-\



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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2009, 03:30:39 PM »
I was just commenting about Honda putting plastic bushings in on the 750 swingarm- it was designed and built to help meet the $1500 price point. I plan on doing the bronze bushing mod by Hondaman if I have the money when he rolls in town (hopefully).

Tapered bearinbgs don't cost that much more than the regular standard ball bearings, do they? I haven't paid much attention since that is something I'll probably tackle this next coming winter- no problems with the steering so far so I'm not gonna monkey with it for now.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 04:37:01 PM »
Cool thing about the All Balls tapered bearing kit is that it includes seals for the bearings, whereas the stock ball bearings aren't sealed.

That plus the ease of installation means I'll just stick with the tapered bearings.

If they cost $200 a set it would be a different story, but the cost differential is negligible.

I guess I'll have to just live with the shame of having bearings that are far, far in excess of what is needed :)



Funny, though, how the implication being made is that anyone using tapered bearings is a sub-standard mechanic who doesn't maintain their machine.  That's quite a leap, there, TT.   ::) ::)  Guess it makes you feel better to look down on people though so, whatever.


mystic_1

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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2009, 05:11:12 PM »
the method i used to get the old races off was strike a quck arc with the highest voltage setting on my mig welder. it makes the race expand enough that it pops right off.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2009, 05:43:58 PM »
Cool thing about the All Balls tapered bearing kit is that it includes seals for the bearings, whereas the stock ball bearings aren't sealed.
They were sealed on my stock bikes.  Apparently, not in a method meeting your lofty standards.

That plus the ease of installation means I'll just stick with the tapered bearings.
Yes, I'm sure that would be best for you, at whatever the cost.

If they cost $200 a set it would be a different story, but the cost differential is negligible.
What a convenient and unquantified statement.  Did that make you feel better?

I guess I'll have to just live with the shame of having bearings that are far, far in excess of what is needed :)
Certainly your choice.  Isn't America the land of excesses?

Funny, though, how the implication being made is that anyone using tapered bearings is a sub-standard mechanic who doesn't maintain their machine.  That's quite a leap, there, TT.   ::) ::)  Guess it makes you feel better to look down on people though so, whatever.
I guess it makes you feel better to bash me whenever you feel the inner need to feel superior, by twisting whatever words I type.
I used to have managers like you who put more stock in the way the message was delivered rather than the content of the message.  Didn't matter that a product was delivered on time, functional, and profitable.  One got demerits if you didn't do it in a process that someone else envisioned it should be done.  

You should be in politics where form is more important than substance.

If you happen to be feeling inferior, look to your own self, mystic.  If you don't like the way I post messages on the forum, I suggest you avail yourself of the ignore button off to the left.  That way your insecurities or sensitivities won't be at risk of inflammation, and you won't be prodded to instigate a public flame war.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2009, 06:07:14 PM »
No twisting necessary, I'm not the first person to comment on your way of talking down to people.

The fact that you feel superior to others in no way implies that I feel inferior.  Talk about your word-twisting!  Well done!

Your superiority complex is showing.  Did you forget to take your meds?

mystic_1
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2009, 09:21:40 PM »
No one is requiring you (or anyone) to read my posts.  If you don't like them or want to read them, then don't.  You won't hurt my feelings by ignoring me.  And perhaps you won't feel the need to throw a hissy fit when you think your feelings have been hurt, or I don't agree with your opinions.

If you have a personal vendetta, take it off line in PMs.  I don't believe the forum needs your personal issues aired openly in the tech forum.

You are the one making personal attacks, mystic.  You've done several already, which I have previously ignored in other threads, in the interest of keeping the threads relevant.  Do we need a mod to referee this one?  If not, then stop making it personal.

You're offended by my style of writing, too bad.  Just stop reading my posts, ok?  That should assuage your sensitivities.

If you have a technical question, post it.  If you have a personal question or comment send a PM.

But, I really don't care about your opinions you've interpreted or contrived about a "superiority complex", yours or anyone else's, and it has no place in a tech forum.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2009, 10:02:13 PM »
If not, then stop making it personal.


As a matter of fact, you are the one who started in on the insults and personal attacks.  I guess you believe that your technical knowledge entitles you to be an ass to everyone around you.

I don't have a technical question, I was providing answers to the question posed in this thread.  Maybe you need to go back and re-read the thread.  In addition to providing an answer to the original question, I indicated my preference for tapered bearings.  You saw fit to launch personal attacks against me in response.

So, take your own advice.


mystic_1
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2009, 10:24:50 PM »
BTW regarding stock parts, the following is based on prices from Western Hills Honda:


Upper bearing
   Upper race   53211-268-010   $18.04
   Lower race   50301-268-010   $14.25

Lower bearing
   Upper race   50302-268-010   $13.60
   Lower race   53212-250-010   $14.00

Ball bearings      96211-08000   $0.72 each, 37 required = 26.64


Grand total = $86.53


Enjoy.

mystic_1


"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me!
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2009, 11:56:24 PM »
If not, then stop making it personal.

As a matter of fact, you are the one who started in on the insults and personal attacks. 
Well that is plainly a manufactured statement, and NOT fact.  Comments related to your written position is NOT a personal attack.

You addressed me directly (apparently because my position differs from yours) in reply #17.  That is where you made a personal comment.
I had no comment about you personally until after your attack (quoted in reply #19), as my response.  (This, after many other attacks by you in prior threads, btw.)

I guess you believe that your technical knowledge entitles you to be an ass to everyone around you.
Sometimes knowledge is better than guessing or name calling.  Certainly in this case.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read the thread.  In addition to providing an answer to the original question, I indicated my preference for tapered bearings. You saw fit to launch personal attacks against me in response.
Never.  That is your contrivance.  I did indicate that taper roller bearings are not the end all, be all solution.  Which differs from your opinion.  Take your own advice and re-read the thread, Mr. name caller/attacker.[/quote]

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.