Topic: End of Democracy... anyone care??

[BeSeeingYou]

Back on track.  This recent decision by the Court was far from unanimous being 5 to 4 I think.  While it still stands as law this shows surely has questionable merits.  This was a victory for the conservative judges so if you don't agree you know who's to blame.  Something like this was predicted when Roberts was named the Chief Justice as he has consistently come down on the side of corporate/big business.

[Duke McDukiedook]

But Rust, if you look prima fascia this is about freedom of speech- they ruled as they should have, according to the intent of the constitution. I am surprised this was not a slam dunk and the liberal judges voted against majority decision, I understand their intent, but it is wrong of them to rule the way they did.

There are other weapons the government can use to disarm the moneybags of the corporations if they really wanted to. But, we know how that plays out in this day and age, don't we?

[Retro Rocket]

Sorry Bob
Mick

Ditto!

Mick, my come backs were in the spirit of your initial post. Perhaps I shouldn't have been drug down that road.
My apologies.

Thankyou...

[Achmed]

Well, like I said, a ways back now, wealth has always been concentrated at the top, in this county and all over the world. Should it be redistributed? What economic system works best for that, if your answer is yes?

I think all the differences between capitalism, socialism, communism, dictatorship, etc. all don't make that much difference at all. Where there is a dictator and his cronies holding most of the money, in another country there are other powerful people holding most of the money. Now that's not to say that all governments are created equal--perhaps one is better than the other for certain things. But power gets concentrated at the top, even if most people don't realize who is really at the top. The poor will always rail against the rich, as they are wont to do. When it gets bad enough, maybe they will create a revolution and take power for the few select poor who are clever enough to take the power and money for themselves. Then the cycle will begin again.

When the revolutionaries win, does it create some kind of better society for everybody? I don't really think so. The poor are still poor. Some of the rich are killed and new people get to take the riches. I believe there was a revolution in France back around 150 to 200 years ago, and their excesses are well documented. That's only one example out of dozens that I can recall. It's probably more like hundreds throughout the ages.

Wives, you can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em and can't shoot 'em. That's a bad joke but it has a ring of truth to it, just like all our dealings with filthy human beings.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Money and power rules all.

[Rocking-M]

my black/irish-german/indian shopmate from georgia just called you a racist fool. not my words, mind you. i seriously dare you do tell your barrel-armed black friend that his ancestors were happy in chains.

good day Gentlemen,

[paulages]

my black/irish-german/indian shopmate from georgia just called you a racist fool. not my words, mind you. i seriously dare you do tell your barrel-armed black friend that his ancestors were happy in chains.

good day Gentlemen,

really? reminds me of this dave chappelle episode...

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[paulages]

RM- it's really sad you felt you had to bail because the discussion of race and pride became too much. hopefully you'll be back.

[edbikerii]

People just aren't even paying attention to what RM is saying.  As he pointed out, there is a lot of modern agitation that muddies the waters.  That is the very reason why this discussion got emotional, rather than remaining logical.

No, hindsight is ABSOLUTELY NOT 20/20!  Our viewpoints are different now than they were then, but we don't know what people were thinking then.  As humans, we love to believe that we get smarter and smarter as a species, but that is nothing but self-important arrogance.  As a species, we still aren't even smart enough to know that in 20 years our now-popular viewpoints WILL CHANGE -- even though we believe that we are "enlightened".

[paulages]

People just aren't even paying attention to what RM is saying.  As he pointed out, there is a lot of modern agitation that muddies the waters.  That is the very reason why this discussion got emotional, rather than remaining logical.

No, hindsight is ABSOLUTELY NOT 20/20!  Our viewpoints are different now than they were then, but we don't know what people were thinking then.  As humans, we love to believe that we get smarter and smarter as a species, but that is nothing but self-important arrogance.  As a species, we still aren't even smart enough to know that in 20 years our now-popular viewpoints WILL CHANGE -- even though we believe that we are "enlightened".

as a species, we are no more intelligent now than we were 40,000 years ago. we have evolved and devolved culturally, but that is important to remember that we have not technically become any smarter since before the domestication of our species. hindsight is not 20/20, but it is paramount to (at least pretending) not repeating mistakes of the past. we may not become smarter, but our culture does evolve, and if you believe in any sense of justice you have to believe that we can learn from prior generations and improve our lot in life. i'm not necessarily sold on our ability to so, but that's beside the point. i think the discussion was very relative to the topic at hand, it's just a shame that race politics can't be examined and separated from the other issues involved with the civil war without emotions flaring. this is common in the south and symbolic of a tension beneath the surface that certain people like to pretend doesn't exist.

[edbikerii]

People just aren't even paying attention to what RM is saying.  As he pointed out, there is a lot of modern agitation that muddies the waters.  That is the very reason why this discussion got emotional, rather than remaining logical.

No, hindsight is ABSOLUTELY NOT 20/20!  Our viewpoints are different now than they were then, but we don't know what people were thinking then.  As humans, we love to believe that we get smarter and smarter as a species, but that is nothing but self-important arrogance.  As a species, we still aren't even smart enough to know that in 20 years our now-popular viewpoints WILL CHANGE -- even though we believe that we are "enlightened".

as a species, we are no more intelligent now than we were 40,000 years ago. we have evolved and devolved culturally, but that is important to remember that we have not technically become any smarter since before the domestication of our species. hindsight is not 20/20, but it is paramount to (at least pretending) not repeating mistakes of the past. we may not become smarter, but our culture does evolve, and if you believe in any sense of justice you have to believe that we can learn from prior generations and improve our lot in life. i'm not necessarily sold on our ability to so, but that's beside the point. i think the discussion was very relative to the topic at hand, it's just a shame that race politics can't be examined and separated from the other issues involved with the civil war without emotions flaring. this is common in the south and symbolic of a tension beneath the surface that certain people like to pretend doesn't exist.

and other people like to pretend is bigger than it is.

[paulages]

Ed, I won't argue with you, as you tend to just disagree with who you think you're supposed to rather than what they're saying. I wasn't even disagreeing with a lot of what RM was saying, just the racial element of the civil war stuff.  Unless you've spent significant time in the south you really don't understand race relations there. It's a very unique place, and very different than anywhere I've ever been, and I've been a lot of places.. such as a brawl in poland where 50 nazis showed up to kick in the "jewish foreigner scum's" teeth. Been in an alley in london when young white college kids started #$%* with the pakistani immigrants who ran the joints they ate at all night wasted out of their minds. Thought I was going to die that night. Where I grew up,  the high school football squad would drag mr. T dolls through "brown town" and come to school Monday bragging about it. And black kids knew where they had come from and where their great-grandparents had been enslaved, and exactly who the kids were who had driven through their neighborhood that weekend... but a certain order was maintained. No violence, but tension. My brother used to deliver pharmacuticals into missippi, south of memphis, and broke down once in a small town. He spent the day at a gas station owned by an old black man, shooting the #$%* with him all day. At one point he went to the bathroom, only to discover a bunch of old men holding a klan meeting in the back room. Confused, he asked the old man about it, and the man said, "they leave us alone, and we leave them alone."

The south is a confusing place.

Anyway, ed's here and I'm out.

[bucky katt]

aw damnit. RM was one of my favorite people here too. this is #$%*ing depressing.

[edbikerii]

Nice.  Now with a twist: I don't argue the right way for you.  Give me a break.  You're out?  No loss.

Ed, I won't argue with you, as you tend to just disagree with who you think you're supposed to rather than what they're saying. I wasn't even disagreeing with a lot of what RM was saying, just the racial element of the civil war stuff.  Unless you've spent significant time in the south you really don't understand race relations there. It's a very unique place, and very different than anywhere I've ever been, and I've been a lot of places.. such as a brawl in poland where 50 nazis showed up to kick in the "jewish foreigner scum's" teeth. Been in an alley in london when young white college kids started #$%* with the pakistani immigrants who ran the joints they ate at all night wasted out of their minds. Thought I was going to die that night. Where I grew up,  the high school football squad would drag mr. T dolls through "brown town" and come to school Monday bragging about it. And black kids knew where they had come from and where their great-grandparents had been enslaved, and exactly who the kids were who had driven through their neighborhood that weekend... but a certain order was maintained. No violence, but tension. My brother used to deliver pharmacuticals into missippi, south of memphis, and broke down once in a small town. He spent the day at a gas station owned by an old black man, shooting the #$%* with him all day. At one point he went to the bathroom, only to discover a bunch of old men holding a klan meeting in the back room. Confused, he asked the old man about it, and the man said, "they leave us alone, and we leave them alone."

The south is a confusing place.

Anyway, ed's here and I'm out.

[edbikerii]

Aw #$%*.  RM has deleted his account?  I sure wish he hadn't, but I can't say I blame him after he was so ignorantly called a racist.

aw damnit. RM was one of my favorite people here too. this is #$%*ing depressing.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, shed a little light and truth on the war of industrial, banking aggression and people label you racist.

Go figure.

[BobbyR]

All I am going to say is that I am sorry RM (Robert) left, I for one will miss him. There is no doubt in my mind he is NOT a racist.

This thing got way out of hand and in hindsight maybe it should have been locked a couple of pages back. I am glad I am not a Mod because it is always a tough call. In the Babe Thread it is cut and dried, here it is not.

All I can say is Rob, sometime somewhere we will meet up, get the kickstands up and enjoy the scenery and the wind in our faces.

[ofreen]

In the Babe Thread it is cut and dried, here it is not.

I beg to differ, as some of us are vehemently opposed to fake boobs. 

Rocking-M made a lot of good points about what the Civil War was all about.  Stuff I didn't learn until many years out of school from my own reading.  What they teach about the Civil War in schools is revisionist crap (another way of saying a lie).  Does this mean that slavery is not a despicable institution?  Of course not.  But the lies about what the Civil War was really about go on, and while those lies are continued, the tension will not go away.  Anything based on lies is going to be fatally flawed.  Simple physics.

I'd like to see Rocking-M cool off and come back.  It is always interesting to read his take on things.

[paulages]

In the Babe Thread it is cut and dried, here it is not.

I beg to differ, as some of us are vehemently opposed to fake boobs. 

Rocking-M made a lot of good points about what the Civil War was all about.  Stuff I didn't learn until many years out of school from my own reading.  What they teach about the Civil War in schools is revisionist crap (another way of saying a lie).  Does this mean that slavery is not a despicable institution?  Of course not.  But the lies about what the Civil War was really about go on, and while those lies are continued, the tension will not go away.  Anything based on lies is going to be fatally flawed.  Simple physics.

I'd like to see Rocking-M cool off and come back.  It is always interesting to read his take on things.

I can't speak for anyone else here. But if you read back to my posts, you'll see that I didn't disagree with much of what RM said, I just took exception to the notion that slaves enjoyed their position in life. I don't think recognizing how slavery played a role in the whole bit (the size of the economy that was mentioned, for example, was only possible with the resource of free labor.. slaves had "health care" in the sense that a farmer's pigs or cattle do) negates the gyst of what he was saying. I think it's a reeal shame that for him it was not possible to divorce the two. One does not have to accept a status quo as a whole to find value within it.

Anyway, none of this is a "left/right" issue, and the reason I said I was bailing when ed appeared is because threads have a tendency to become overrun with this dynamic after he comes around. I have no interest in that type of discussion, because it's utterly unproductive.. 

[edbikerii]

I never heard RM say a word about slaves enjoying their position in life.  Again, he presented logical, unemotional points, supported by relevant literature from the time, which is something you are unable to do.  Your emotional immaturity drove him away.

Don't try to deflect your guilt onto me, paulages.  I didn't piss the guy off with stupidity.  You did.

I can't speak for anyone else here. But if you read back to my posts, you'll see that I didn't disagree with much of what RM said, I just took exception to the notion that slaves enjoyed their position in life. I don't think recognizing how slavery played a role in the whole bit (the size of the economy that was mentioned, for example, was only possible with the resource of free labor.. slaves had "health care" in the sense that a farmer's pigs or cattle do) negates the gyst of what he was saying. I think it's a reeal shame that for him it was not possible to divorce the two. One does not have to accept a status quo as a whole to find value within it.

Anyway, none of this is a "left/right" issue, and the reason I said I was bailing when ed appeared is because threads have a tendency to become overrun with this dynamic after he comes around. I have no interest in that type of discussion, because it's utterly unproductive.. 

[Retro Rocket]

Piss poor statement ED

RM...

Oh sure Mick, wonder how you'd have made it in that day, oh wait, you'd have been one of the bloody criminals shipped off to
the penal colony.

Pot calling the kettle black mate, just because you agree with him doesn't mean everything he said was right...He answered my post with a personal attack so cut the #$%*ing about what Paul said.
He did apologise in a way but still he went straight into a personal attack rather than respond accordingly...
Also as far as insults go, that reverted to the lowest thing he could call an Aussie so don't try and sound so high and mighty.

Mick

[edbikerii]

Ah, another emo.  See, I don't give a damn.  I didn't say it, and pauly's still an ass.

Piss poor statement ED

RM...

Oh sure Mick, wonder how you'd have made it in that day, oh wait, you'd have been one of the bloody criminals shipped off to
the penal colony.

Pot calling the kettle black mate, just because you agree with him doesn't mean everything he said was right...He answered my post with a personal attack so cut the #$%*ing about what Paul said.
He did apologise in a way but still he went straight into a personal attack rather than respond accordingly...
Also as far as insults go, that reverted to the lowest thing he could call an Aussie so don't try and sound so high and mighty.

Mick

[Bob Wessner]

One more instance of name calling and this thread is history.

[Rocking-M]

ED, Ofreen, Dukie, Jeff, and anyone else that got it. I decided to come back and say a thanks.
I can't see any point in sticking around to debate this or that when facts are ignored. That's why we have the end
of our "Democracy". So this is the last one. I'll pm you folks my email so if you ever want to get together in the Blue Ridge
for a ride let me know. I got to say I enjoyed hanging here for the last few years but see it's time to move on.

had to come back and edit in one more thought on Democracy, A Prediction a good 70 years before,

"For as some of the most valuable truths, for lack of promulgation, have been lost, so the best government on earth, if not duly known and prized, may be subverted. Ambitious demagogues will rise, and the people through ignorance, and love of change, will follow them. Vast armies will be formed, and bloody battles fought. And after desolating their country (our South) with all the horrors of civil war, the guilty survivors will have to bend their (own) necks to the iron yokes of some stern usurper, and like beast of burden, to drag, unpitied those galling chains which they have riveted upon themselves for ever." Francis Marion around 1787

Now we continue to drag those galling chains placed on us by a central government never intended to rule the States. And while it is well and good to say "we need to change" I think the accurate assessment of  change is this: "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government. There is so much talk about the system. And so little understanding." (Robert M. Pirsig from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance


Paul, the fellow I posted with the Battle Flag (and no, it isn't the Stars and Bars) is the past President of the NAACP
in Asheville, NC. Share that with your black friend. His name by the way is H.K. Edgerton. You can goggle him.

That's it, soon as I send a few pm's.

[Brown Bomber]

This thread started out as an interesting discussion about the United States current political state of affairs, but has become a pissin match tween tha nawth an tha south. The crooks that are currently running this country are banking on the people not staying focused, but maybe we should put slavery back under a microscope, if the socialists have their way we'll all be slaves to the government.

lock it

See above