Author Topic: A regulator question for the boffins  (Read 2012 times)

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Offline dpen

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A regulator question for the boffins
« on: January 17, 2006, 03:47:52 AM »
The voltage regulator on my K7 seems to have given up the ghost.

Symptons started when I had a flat battery &, when checking with a meter, found that the battery was receiving no charge.

Poking around turned up a fallen earth wire to the regulator.

Wire reconnected & charge rate good BUT..... after 15 seconds the anciliaries stop working (blinkers, electric leg etc)

I whipped off the regulator & cleaned & gapped the points (both gaps set correct) - no change so out comes the multimeter.

Strange one - all three terminals have a circuit. It doesn't matter which you touch (field to earth, earth to ignition etc) there is a circuit. Put the meter across the points & there is a reading no matter whether the points are open or closed.

To me, this indicates a short in the coil. Am I correct?

I got a sparkie at work to check the reg & he said that the long resistor on the back was stuffed.

Could this give the symptons I've had?

Finally, does anyone know of a replacement unit (electronic or points) easily available as I shudder to think what a new reg would cost.

Offline cadler

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 05:12:58 AM »
I am not sure about a K7 but on a K1 you need to increase the rmp's before you start to charge the battery. At idle you will only read about 12V.
Rev it up to 2-3000 rpm then check the voltage across the battery.

Offline cadler

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2006, 05:18:55 AM »
Does your bike still start?
If it does then your coils are fine. I would check all of your wires before replacing anything.

Offline bryanj

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2006, 06:46:29 AM »
regs do go totally wrong but not often do a proper charging check as per manual before you spend on new parts. The later DOHC reg/rec can be fitted with just a small wiring mod
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Zane

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2006, 09:38:49 AM »
Quote
"Finally, does anyone know of a replacement unit (electronic or points) easily available as I shudder to think what a new reg would cost."

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/index.html

26.2

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2006, 09:46:18 AM »
Has anybody have any experience with Oregon Motorcycle Parts?  I may have to replace my regulator (CB 750k8), and was thinking of going with a solid state regulator.

- Tom

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 10:19:39 AM »
Check '5youngs" profile below and shoot an email or PM. I found an old posting where he had purchased one of their rectifiers and whether ou should consider them for a regulator. Maybe he will share his thoughts on it with you. Good luck.

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=516
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 11:15:15 AM »
Wire reconnected & charge rate good BUT..... after 15 seconds the anciliaries stop working (blinkers, electric leg etc)

These devices are voltage sensitive and a low battery may not have enough voltage to operate these as you would like.  The alternator doesn't recharge the battery at idle.  Also, the manuals clearly state that the charging system be checked with a fully charged battery (off bike, if necessary).

Strange one - all three terminals have a circuit. It doesn't matter which you touch (field to earth, earth to ignition etc) there is a circuit. Put the meter across the points & there is a reading no matter whether the points are open or closed.

All the regulator does is to apply 12v to the field coil for full output (dependent on alternator RPM) or insert a 10 ohm resistor in series to reduce alternator output when the battery voltage gets as high as 14.5v.

A 10 ohm resistor is a rather small value.  And, if you haven't set the multimeter ranges correctly, you may not notice you have resistance.

To me, this indicates a short in the coil. Am I correct?

See above

I got a sparkie at work to check the reg & he said that the long resistor on the back was stuffed.

Based on what data?

Could this give the symptoms I've had?

Who knows?  The data presented is a bit suspect.   ::)  Can't expect the regulator to work if it isn't fully connected.
What kind of voltages are being seen at the battery and at what RPMs? Charging output is variable with RPM.

Finally, does anyone know of a replacement unit (electronic or points) easily available as I shudder to think what a new reg would cost.

There was just a recent thread where someone bought a Reg/Rect off ebay for $50.  He Says he'll install it next weekend and report progress.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bodi

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 12:13:46 PM »
Well, the data is a bit suspect.
You need to understand the regulator's internal circuit before you try to interpret the meter readings.
Between BAT and GROUND there's the relay coil; this is a voltage sensing relay that's supposed to open its contact at about 13.5 volts. The contact connects BAT and FIELD when closed. There's also the 10 ohm resistor between BAT and FIELD all the time, the relay contact is in parallel with it... so between BAT and FIELD there's a direct connection below 13.5 volts and 10 ohms above 13.5 volts.
The resistance of the coil is fairly low, 10 ohms is fairly low, and the closed contact is very low resistance hopefully. So the meter readings may not be easily understood, particularly on a meter with poor resolution at low resistance (most any cheap meter, for example).
Electronic regulators mostly use some type of transistor to replace the relay and usually omit the resistor, switching at a relatively low frequency using pulse width modulation on the field terminal to produce a wide adjustabilty of the alternator output without producing a lot of internal heat.
There's no overwhelming reason to prefer an electronic regulator. The mechanical type will actually provide more field current than an electronic one; the relay contact can have almost zero resistance while all semiconductor current devices have an unavoidable voltage drop. The electronic ones should give better control over the system voltage. A charging system with other problems won't work better though.
The biggest trouble with the SOHC4 charging system is the wiring harness. The voltage at the regulator BAT terminal is at the end of a long series of bullet terminals and the ignition switch contact, many large loads are near the regulator end of that chain as well. With corroded terminals and switch contacts the voltage at the regulator will be several volts lower than the actual battery voltage, often this is too low to provide enough juice to the field coil to get good alternator output. If it is enough... then the battery voltage is so much higher than the regulator BAT terminal voltage that the battery gets overcharged and boils dry.
So the best approach to any old bike with charging problems is to clean all the bullet connectors. A good addition is a 12V headlight relay with the coil connected to ground and the regulator black wire (disconnected from the regulator) and a NO contact between the battery + and the regulator BAT terminal (this should be fused); this puts "real" battery voltage on the regulator so it's regulating the correct thing, and provides maximum available power for the field coil. My experience is that these 2 things will give you excellent charging with the mechanical regulator or an electronic replacement.

Offline clarkjh

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 02:55:06 PM »
Something I found to help in the trouble shooting the charging system, I don't remember where I found it though

http://cryscom.nb.ca/PDF_Docs/fault_finding.pdf

I hope I never have to use it ;)

James
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1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
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Offline dpen

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 03:15:01 PM »
Thanks fellas, to answer:

1. all readings checked with battery fully charged

2. resistor on the back (the long one) checked by the sparkie at work. He used a setting on his multimeter that I don't have (or don't know about) and, as there is an ongoing war between mechanics & 'leccos he kept mum

3. I rewired the bike myself according to a diagragm a tired bloke was kind enough to send me a fair while ago, bike has been running great until about 1 month ago until:

4. I started getting a flat battery & then noticed the earth to the regulator was detached

5. by adjusting the regulator I can vary the charge up to over 15 volts


Offline TwoTired

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 03:46:37 PM »

5. by adjusting the regulator I can vary the charge up to over 15 volts


Suggest you dial it down to 14.5 or 14.6 max.  Unless, of course, you like the smell of roast battery.  ;D

If you can't get the maximum down that far, then get another regulator.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dpen

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 08:37:09 PM »
Sorry Lloyd, I may not have been too clear.

By adjusting the regulator I can have a charge rate of nothing to just over 15 volts.

The big proplem is that when the bike is charging (at whatever rate I set the screw at) the anciliaries will cut out after about 30 seconds.

Remove the earth lead to the reg & all anciliaries (love that word) work but, naturally, there's no charging.

Little project ;- if anyone has the chance, could you drop your LH side cover & disconnect the three wires going to the regulator.

Set your multimeter to "continuity" eg"ohms & try all three connections in any order.

Doing this results in a reading on my meter no matter which terminals I connect.

If someone could do this & get back to me I'll know quite easily if i have a regulator problem or if it's deeper.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 10:43:29 PM »

Regulator resistance measurements.
Black (I)  Ignition
White (F)  Field
Green (E) Earth

Terminals / Contacts up / contacts down / Contacts isolated
  I to F  / 0.0 ohm   /  7.8 ohm  /10 ohm
  I to E  / 35.5 ohm  /7.7 ohm / 35.5 ohm
  F to E  / 35.6 ohm / 0 ohm / 45.5 ohm

With measurements this small, be sure to subtract test lead resistance in your readings.  Put probe tips together, note readings, subtract from future measurments.

Any chance you can post your bike's wiring schematic?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dpen

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 03:43:55 AM »
Ta T.T.

I'll give it a test with your readings tonight as that gives me something to go on.

My tests have just given 0.00 ohms (same as when you touch the probes together) but I haven't really gone for a fine scale on the meter.

However, I'll change the settings & go for accurate, minute readings tonight.

Bikes wiring is the same as that for a basis SOHC4 chopper that you sent me a fair while ago. Only addition is an extra two wires for the flasher can.

I'll stress that everything was OK until the battery went flat & I found the earth wire broken. I'm re-checking all the wiring tonight so I'll report back with (hopefully) a solution.


Offline dpen

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2006, 03:23:59 AM »
Thank you Tired one.

Checked my regulator & the readings come to within a poofteenth of yours. So the reg is ok.

Time to start on the little wires & crap I didn't replace before.

Isn't it funny how a little knowledge can be dangerous?

I've been using multimeters for over 30 years but only for basics (continuity & voltage). I was still reading a short on the reg so I had a play with the meter.

The finest setting (2k) gave me readings (not just 0.00) with the added bonus of a neat chirping sound when a circuit was completed.

If I'd have paid attention during the elec. phase of my apprentice all those years ago I would've had that cute chirp to keep me company all the long nights I tried to make sense of Joe Lucas'ssss finest creations.

Offline cadler

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2006, 04:37:43 AM »
What about the rectifier?

Offline dpen

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Re: A regulator question for the boffins
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2006, 01:23:57 AM »
What about the rectifier?
Well, I haven't got around to the rectifier yet. The sparkie at work said that one of the resistors on the back of the regulator was stuffed but it still seemed ok as a unit.

I've sourced a good, tested regulator for $20 so i'll throw that on & finish off the wiring.

If I have the samr problem I'll trot down to this auto elec a mate put me onto who is supposed to be s..t hot on bikes & only charges friends by the beer.

AND I'll still have my original regulator as a slightly used spare.

Now the problem is finding $520 for the rego.