Author Topic: health care bill  (Read 38684 times)

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traveler

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #200 on: March 25, 2010, 03:02:43 PM »
I keep coming back to the same things:

Government has run Social Security into the ground.  If they can't run SS, how can they run medical care?

The governemtn telling you "you MUST buy this, or you are fined".....and the IRS enforcing this!  Even going so far as having your bank account information so as to garnish your wages for non-compliance....

Telling me that I should feel RESPONSIBLE to pay for others medical care.  This is akin to telling me I must pay some else's child support, or alimony.  Whatever happened to carrying your own weight??  I feel as though I should go house to house and ask for donations for something I feel I need or deserve.

Pre existing conditions.......does that mean you can go without insurance until you are sick, then go get it the day before you go to the hospital?  Does anyone beleive the insurance companies can survive in that scenario?

In short, does anyone REALLY believe that this IS NOT the first step in having single payer, all powerful governemtn control over your healthcare?

There is only so much money to go around....and only so many operations available.  In other words....who decides who gets the operation and who dosen't???

The costs forf this will be so large....how can teh President keep his promise of not raising taxes?

I'd like to know these things....not just that I am mean spirited for expecting people to take care of themselves.  Life is full of choices.  If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

~joe

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #201 on: March 25, 2010, 03:12:45 PM »
Oh, I don't know, pull out of a corporate war or two... that would free up some money.
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Offline tramp

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #202 on: March 25, 2010, 03:20:49 PM »
and you've got to wonder why the college loan bill was wrapped up in it too
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Offline Rocking-M

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #203 on: March 25, 2010, 03:28:37 PM »
Oh, I don't know, pull out of a corporate war or two... that would free up some money.

yep!

The Family of four average for health care in 2006 was $13,382.
I can not afford that as a single income provider and self employed.

I and my family have always pursued healthy active lifestyles.
We are all in good health. We spend next to nothing on health care each year.
Oh, we occasionally buy aspirins but that's it.
If either my wife or I ever are seriously ill I suppose we'd be bankrupt as the system now stand.
That is if we even received any kind of health care without insurance.

I am now in favor of the single payer system. Tax me for health care as long as
it's provided.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 03:30:11 PM by Rocking-M »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #204 on: March 25, 2010, 04:54:30 PM »

BobbyR: I think anyone with any sense saw that coming. The gov't said they couldn't turn anyone down, they didn't say they couldn't jack up the rates so high that no one could afford it. They will still keep the hard to cover people off their books. They will also loose many good, longtime customers too. I wonder how they figure to stay in business by jacking up the rates? In this case, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot along with America. Shame on the insurance companies who do that. The CFOs still thinking that it's all about them instead of the sick and needy.  :(
That was not me but I agree.
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #205 on: March 25, 2010, 05:29:25 PM »
"Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It's true! Liberal governments always develop into aristocracies. The bureaucracies betray the true intent of people who form such governments. Right from the first the little people who formed the governments which promised to equalize the social burdens found themselves suddenly in the hands of bureaucratic aristocracies. Of course, all bureaucracies follow this pattern, but what a hypocrisy to find this even under a communized banner."

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Offline DaytonGuy

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #206 on: March 25, 2010, 05:42:03 PM »
Quote
Do you know of dying people who sit in hospitals with known illnesses and they are tossed out...

It does not happen. They are treated; Every Hospital has a social worker staff that evaluates the situation and finds a way to take care of the problem. I am sure there is some delay, and I am sure some fall through the cracks, but she would be treated.  Although not at a hospital of her choosing.

Go to a hospital, ask them the question, they will inform you.

Boy I'm glad you said that..because that is part of the problem with the current healthcare system.  If this lady would not qualify for Medicare or Medicare, which she may verywell not.  Isn't medicare age based and Medicaid income based?  So if she doesn't qualify, then nobody pays for her care.  The hospital is required to provide it, but if she can't afford to pay then they will bill her.  Depending on the actual cost, she will file for medical bankruptcy and destroy what is left of her credit.  The hospital has to recoup their costs by raising their rates for service.  Because there rates go up, over time, the insurance reimbursement to the hospitals will go up, and ultimately the insurance premiums we all pay will go up.......

An example...my mother.  She is too young for medicare, but makes too much for Medicaid, which is crazy since she has a measly $9.25/hr. job.  She had a mild heart attack, two stints put in, and received a bill for over $100K for the services.  Could not pay, filed bankruptcy, waiting on next medical disaster to do it all over again.  She does not have insurance because her $9.25/ hr will not allow her to afford the sh!tty coverage her employer offers. 

How does the Hospital make their money back on that one?


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Re: health care bill
« Reply #207 on: March 25, 2010, 05:46:03 PM »
Quote
Do you know of dying people who sit in hospitals with known illnesses and they are tossed out...

It does not happen. They are treated; Every Hospital has a social worker staff that evaluates the situation and finds a way to take care of the problem. I am sure there is some delay, and I am sure some fall through the cracks, but she would be treated.  Although not at a hospital of her choosing.

Go to a hospital, ask them the question, they will inform you.

Boy I'm glad you said that..because that is part of the problem with the current healthcare system.  If this lady would not qualify for Medicare or Medicare, which she may verywell not.  Isn't medicare age based and Medicaid income based?  So if she doesn't qualify, then nobody pays for her care.  The hospital is required to provide it, but if she can't afford to pay then they will bill her.  Depending on the actual cost, she will file for medical bankruptcy and destroy what is left of her credit.  The hospital has to recoup their costs by raising their rates for service.  Because there rates go up, over time, the insurance reimbursement to the hospitals will go up, and ultimately the insurance premiums we all pay will go up.......

An example...my mother.  She is too young for medicare, but makes too much for Medicaid, which is crazy since she has a measly $9.25/hr. job.  She had a mild heart attack, two stints put in, and received a bill for over $100K for the services.  Could not pay, filed bankruptcy, waiting on next medical disaster to do it all over again.  She does not have insurance because her $9.25/ hr will not allow her to afford the sh!tty coverage her employer offers. 

How does the Hospital make their money back on that one?


Actually they don't which is why Community Hospitals are closing at a rapid rate.
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #208 on: March 25, 2010, 05:53:10 PM »
Quote
If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.? 

Mick
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #209 on: March 25, 2010, 06:03:17 PM »
Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.

Frank Herbert


As I have stated, sick people get care, I am not making the case that they get great care.  the burden for that care falls on all of us through taxes or increased fees paid to insurance companies because they pay higher prices to hospitals to cover these costs.


It has been my observation that community hospitals fail because their communities quit supporting them.  

Competition from small health providers who provide only services that are profitable such as dialysis centers and out-patient surgery centers.  

I am not making a judgment as to whether of not these centers are right or wrong, just that they are set up because that function is profitable, and this profit no longer contributes to the health of the community hospital.

  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 06:14:43 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline DaytonGuy

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #210 on: March 25, 2010, 06:12:31 PM »
Imagine our lives if all of the poor folks were suddenly gone......who would stock the shelves at your local supermarket?  Who would flip that burger you like to get at Wendy's?  Who would dry-clean your clothes?  We depend on these low paying jobs for everyday comforts?  Christ, the entire service industry is supported by these people.  So is it OK to take those folks for granted?  Do they not deserve to have comfort in the fact that they can go to the doctor when they get sick like you an I can and not have to worry about what it will cost?  Or should they just continue to go and not pay their bills so that you an I have to pay anyway through increase insurance rates? 

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #211 on: March 25, 2010, 06:14:01 PM »
More thought?  Yes, since Medicaid and Medicare pay SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance, it should be completely dismantled and PRIVATIZED.  Obviously, once you get the people addicted to a government program, it can never be fixed, so I assume it will always be paid for with TAX MONEY, as it is now.  However, private enterprise is ALWAYS more efficient and higher quality than government.

Have you given any more thought to your reform of medicaid/care Ed?

Since we already pay for it, why not just up the weekly take and eliminate the insurance companies. Then go through that horrible and dilapidated system piece by piece and make it into a similar model that some other countries have.

Then all you have to do is change the name from medicare/aid to the National Health.

Seeing as how we already pay for it anyway.

I for one am totally for not paying for medical care twice.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #212 on: March 25, 2010, 06:22:59 PM »
..since Medicaid and Medicare pay SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance, it should be completely dismantled and PRIVATIZED.

Ed, not sure I understand this. Are you saying that the providers of healthcare under Medicaid/Medicare are receiving six times the fee payments offered by no-government insurers?
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #213 on: March 25, 2010, 06:25:06 PM »
I have never heard of any report that stated medicaid/medicare pays six times as much for care as a private insurer.  There was just a series of report about doctors crying that they should not have to take patients at the rates paid by medicare/medicaid because it is not enough to cover costs.


Where does your "SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance" information come from?

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #214 on: March 25, 2010, 06:25:12 PM »
Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.

Frank Herbert


As I have stated, sick people get care, I am not making the case that they get great care.  the burden for that care falls on all of us through taxes or increased fees paid to insurance companies because they pay higher prices to hospitals to cover these costs.


It has been my observation that community hospitals fail because their communities quit supporting them.  

Competition from small health providers who provide only services that are profitable such as dialysis centers and out-patient surgery centers.  

I am not making a judgment as to whether of not these centers are right or wrong, just that they are set up because that function is profitable, and this profit no longer contributes to the health if the community hospital.

  
No I beg to differ. My brother was the VP of two Hospitals. Part of the problem is they are bound to treat everyone. The other is declining reimbursements from the Ins companies. They submit billings for say $500K, the check comes in at $450K 90 days later, they challenge the amount, they say oops and send a another check 90 Days later to cover the rest. They do that every billing. In the meantime the Hosp has to cover the payroll, utilities, supplies etc. It becomes unsustainable. The Community Hospital is the backbone of Medical care, they may stabilize you and send you to local Medical Center for something sophisticated, but you need that rapid care so you survive the trip to the Medical Center
that may be a hour away.    
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #215 on: March 25, 2010, 06:27:13 PM »
More thought?  Yes, since Medicaid and Medicare pay SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance, it should be completely dismantled and PRIVATIZED.  Obviously, once you get the people addicted to a government program, it can never be fixed, so I assume it will always be paid for with TAX MONEY, as it is now.  However, private enterprise is ALWAYS more efficient and higher quality than government.

Have you given any more thought to your reform of medicaid/care Ed?

Since we already pay for it, why not just up the weekly take and eliminate the insurance companies. Then go through that horrible and dilapidated system piece by piece and make it into a similar model that some other countries have.

Then all you have to do is change the name from medicare/aid to the National Health.

Seeing as how we already pay for it anyway.

I for one am totally for not paying for medical care twice.

I don't know about you lot but everytime we have been fed the "privatisation is better" crap, everything has become much dearer, like electricity, toll roads, postal services, i could go on but i have made my point.

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Offline DaytonGuy

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #216 on: March 25, 2010, 06:27:39 PM »
Quote
..since Medicaid and Medicare pay SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance, it should be completely dismantled and PRIVATIZED.

That's a joke!  Every blog I've read since Heathcare was passed has read something like this.  I'm a nurse at this little clinic and we can't stand medicaid patients.  We always loose money on them.  Now the whole system is going to be like that.

I just laugh and move on to the next blog!!!!!

Offline Rocking-M

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #217 on: March 25, 2010, 06:30:25 PM »
Quote
If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.? 

Mick

Clearly and elitist wrote that Mick. I couldn't see who was quoted.

One tid bit of fact. Thomas Jefferson nor any of the founders depended on health care insurance. They did depend on
doctors who took the Hippocratic oath.

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Offline DaytonGuy

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #218 on: March 25, 2010, 06:30:49 PM »
Quote
Where does your "SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance" information come from?

Fox News....LMAO    ::) ::) ::)


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Re: health care bill
« Reply #219 on: March 25, 2010, 06:33:52 PM »
Quote
If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.? 

Mick

Clearly and elitist wrote that Mick. I couldn't see who was quoted.

One tid bit of fact. Thomas Jefferson nor any of the founders depended on health care insurance. They did depend on
doctors who took the Hippocratic oath.



It was from Travellers post at the top of the page.

Instead of the hypocritical oath...which seems more common these days... Sorry for the poor play on words.... :P

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #220 on: March 25, 2010, 06:38:08 PM »

No I beg to differ. My brother was the VP of two Hospitals. Part of the problem is they are bound to treat everyone. The other is declining reimbursements from the Ins companies. They submit billings for say $500K, the check comes in at $450K 90 days later, they challenge the amount, they say oops and send a another check 90 Days later to cover the rest. They do that every billing. In the meantime the Hosp has to cover the payroll, utilities, supplies etc. It becomes unsustainable. The Community Hospital is the backbone of Medical care, they may stabilize you and send you to local Medical Center for something sophisticated, but you need that rapid care so you survive the trip to the Medical Center
that may be a hour away.    


that could be another reason, it is not the only reason.  Ask your VP friend about the doctors who set up a health center to bleed off profitable segments of what the community hospital used to provide.  I don't know about Westchester, but in Cortland, and now in Charlotte I have seen it many times.  

The Doctors even bought a mobile MRI and parked it a half mile down the street from the hospital.  My wife has a MRI twice a year for her condition, 6 years ago the insurance carrier sent her to the hospital, now she goes to a health center parking lot, and she works for the hospital...

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #221 on: March 25, 2010, 06:41:15 PM »
The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), a component of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), administers Medicare, Medicaid, the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), and the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA). Along with the Departments of Labor and Treasury, CMS also implements the insurance reform provisions of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). The Social Security
 Medicare Administration

Administration  is responsible for determining Medicare eligibility and processing premium payments for the Medicare program.

The Chief Actuary of CMS is responsible for providing accounting information and cost-projections to the Medicare Board of Trustees in order to assist them in assessing the financial health of the program. The Board is required by law to issue annual reports on the financial status of the Medicare Trust Funds, and those reports are required to contain a statement of actuarial opinion by the Chief Actuary.[3][4]

Since the beginning of the Medicare program, CMS has contracted with private companies to operate as intermediaries between the government and medical providers.[5] These contractors are commonly already in the insurance or health care area. Contracted processes include claims and payment processing, call center services, clinician enrollment, and fraud investigation.
Medicare contracts with regional insurance companies who process over one billion fee-for-service claims per year. In 2008, Medicare accounted for 13% ($386 billion) of the federal budget. In 2010 it is projected to account for 12.5% ($452 billion) of the total expenditures. For the decade 2010-2019 medicare is projected to cost 6.4 trillion dollars or 14.8% of the federal budget for the period.[35]


Reimbursements

In 2006, the SGR mechanism was scheduled to decrease physician payments by 4.4%. (This number results from a 7% decrease in physician payments times a 2.8% inflation adjustment increase.) Congress overrode this decrease in the Deficit Reduction Act (P.L. 109-362), and held physician payments in 2006 at their 2005 levels. Similarly, another congressional act held 2007 payments at their 2006 levels, and HR 6331 held 2008 physician payments to their 2007 levels, and provided for a 1.1% increase in physician payments in 2009. Without further continuing congressional intervention, the SGR is expected to decrease physician payments from 25% to 35% over the next several years.

MFS has been criticized for not paying doctors enough because of the low conversion factor. By adjustments to the MFS conversion factor, it is possible to make global adjustments in payments to all doctors.

Chemotherapy  and other medications dispensed in a physician's office are reimbursed according to the Average Sales Price, a number computed by taking the total dollar sales of a drug as the numerator and the number of units sold nationwide as the denominator.[39]  The current reimbursement formula is known as "ASP+6" since it reimburses physicians at 106% of the ASP of drugs. Pharmaceutical company discounts and rebates are included in the calculation of ASP, and tend to reduce it. In addition, Medicare only pays 80% of ASP+6 which is the equivalent of 84.8% of the actual average cost of the drug. Some patients have supplemental insurance or can afford the co-pay. Large numbers do not. This leaves the payment to physicians for most of the drugs in an "underwater" state. ASP+6 superseded Average Wholesale Price in 2005,  after a 2003 front-page New York Times article drew attention to the inaccuracies of Average Wholesale Price calculations.


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Re: health care bill
« Reply #222 on: March 25, 2010, 06:47:14 PM »
Instead of the hypocritical oath...which seems more common these days... Sorry for the poor play on words.... :P

Mick

Funny you should say that, Mick... I was thinking on that play on words.  The thing is, though, Jefferson's doctor went to medical school and on buying his tools and bag of tinctures, was fully equipped.  He could make a mustard plaster to induce sweats and use his scalpel (reusable and sharpened often) to bleed his patients at little cost to himself and the patient.  Leeches were easily collected.  The most expensive part of their practice was the latest pharmacology...
Dental work? Your barber was also accomplished at pulling teeth.
These days, while a family practice doctor is naturally a diagnostician first and a treater of illnesses second, diagnostic tools just aren't as simple as they were, and all our cost comes down to all of the "other" people we have in hospitals.  An 1800s hospital is dramatically different from one today.  Imaging? Respiratory therapy?  Dialysis? Sterile processing? All very new.  The more complex health care becomes  the more cost we see, and the less a doctor can do on his/her own.  Even if a doctor wanted to practice free health care, the lab work and imaging, EKG and other testing necessary to accurately diagnose anything serious would still be prohibitively expensive. :/  Not picking on you, but it's just a lot that needs to be covered.

Thats ok Kit, i meant it as a general observation more than a blight on the doctors.....I should have been more specific... ;)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #223 on: March 25, 2010, 06:50:45 PM »
See the testimony of Janet Rehnquist, Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services:

http://oig.hhs.gov/testimony/docs/2002/020611fin.pdf

I posted this (was it really years ago?) in one of the other stupid healthcare debate threads that got locked down.  Obviously, none of you "reformers" bothered to read it then, either.

..since Medicaid and Medicare pay SIX TIMES AS MUCH for the same services/medicines as private insurance, it should be completely dismantled and PRIVATIZED.

Ed, not sure I understand this. Are you saying that the providers of healthcare under Medicaid/Medicare are receiving six times the fee payments offered by no-government insurers?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #224 on: March 25, 2010, 06:57:32 PM »
It looks like that PDF is about equipment and supplies and not treatment costs...


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