Author Topic: 1980 Honda CB650: The Cash Machine - major progress  (Read 46746 times)

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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 01:43:54 PM »
I *want* to explore winding that huge heavy duty return spring just a little bit less so the throttle isn't such a harsh turn to open.
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline The_Crippler

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2010, 03:53:32 PM »
Mine's not too bad...or maybe there's a reason why, as a guy, my right wrist is a bit stronger...

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2010, 05:13:11 PM »
...and #$%* like this is how my build thread got to be 38 pages. ::)
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
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Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 05:14:36 PM »
I didn't know it was like golf, where you're trying to get the lowest score!!   ;)
~ Jim

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There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline The_Crippler

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 05:44:44 PM »
If so, I'm winning! ;D

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2010, 09:10:57 PM »
Sent you a PM.....we are both in Rapid City.

Keep up the progress....every step forward is getting somewhere!

~Joe

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2010, 09:37:51 PM »
oh, hey, while your carbs are off, this is a good time to treat your boots with wintergreen oil (as per the directions here on the forum) to get 'em nice and soft and assure a good seal with your newly cleaned carbs. :)
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2010, 10:00:42 PM »
I had already planned on giving the boots the wintergreen treatment.  My wife swears by the wintergreen essential oils for easing muscle pains.  Perhaps I should respond in that thread that the stuff that comes in the 1/2 oz. bottle is a VERY concentrated, very pure form of wintergreen oil, and the stuff that comes in the 250 mL bottles tends to be more diluted for use in aromatherapy. 

Either one should get the job done, but the small bottle is expensive and very powerful.  It's actually strong enough to burn your skin, if you're not careful.

At any rate, I have to either replace or repair the rubber boot between the filter box and the airbox (I think that's what they're called, the two boxes connected by the funny-shaped rubber boot before the air is divided into the 4 carbs).  Fortunately, once again, the Standard has one that's in good shape, so I'll be able to get the Custom on the road soon.
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

traveler

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2010, 08:57:22 PM »
ok....I guess not.

Good luck.

~Joe

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2010, 11:26:57 PM »
I've been working for my dad this week, and haven't had as much time to tinker with the Custom as I would like.  However, that's a good thing, given the fact that I am out of money for the month, but still need parts.  I don't know if a teardown and rebuild is fully documented for a 650 here, but whether it is or not, I will be taking MANY pictures as I go through the process.

I forgot to grab the camera before I pulled the carbs, but the advice here helped me get them out without too much hassle.  I think the boot connecting the air filter housing to the airbox (I think it's sometimes called the diverter) is one of the key parts to this process.  I disconnected the air filter housing from the frame and the airbox, and was able to tip it back about half an inch.  This gave me some wiggle room to separate the carbs from the airbox, pull the airbox to the rear of the bike, and tip the carbs down to get them out of the boots connecting them to the engine. 

Air cleaner in place.


Tipped back.


Sorry, I don't have pics of the actual removal.  :(

Looks like the top breather tube is going to need to be replaced.  30 years is not good to rubber, it seems.


The lower one is going to need to be replaced too.


With the carbs and airbox out of the way, routing the overflow tubes will be much easier.
The boot between the filter and the airbox is nice and supple, but needs to be replaced... unless someone has a very good method of repairing torn rubber.



Inside the airbox.  Like everything else, needs to be cleaned.


The boots between the carbs and the engine were pliable enough to get the carbs off, but not super squishy.  I'm squeezing as hard as I can here.


A look down the throats.

#1


#2  I hope this is just a bad picture.


#3


#4
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carb cleaning time... need advice!
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2010, 12:00:04 AM »
Now for the carbs themselves.  This is mostly a log of before pictures.  Once I scratch up the cash to buy the gasket kits, I'll clean them up nice and put them back together.

Because the #4 carb was gushing gas when I started it, I pulled that bowl first just to take a look.


It's a little sticky.  Here's pushed all the way up.


Allowed to fall on its own.


How far down it goes if I pull it gently.


Inside the bowl.


It's kind of hard to tell, but there's a little bt of gunk hanging down from above the float.  Might have something to do with the float sticking and causing it to piss gas all over.


There is no way I'm even going to try to rejuvenate these O-ring gaskets.  They are flat as a 2x4 in the grooves.


I tried to pull the gasket out without damaging it... no dice.  It was stuck in there good.


The #3 bowl.


The carbs have had gas in them for about a week now.  I took a flat screwdriver and *gently* scraped it across the bottom of the bowl to see how attached the gunk is.  Survey says... not very!


An upskirt shot of the #3 carb float.


I noticed something while looking over the unit as a whole.  On the #4 butterfly, you can see where someone scratched the words "TOP" and "OUT."  I take this as evidence the carbs have been torn down before.


I also noticed the #3 and 4 bowls had "3 4" stamped on the bottoms.  The #2 bowl, with the accelerator pump, had a "2" stamped into it, and the #1 bowl had a "1."  Thanks for the hint, Honda!


A look at the Custom's rack from above.  It needs to be cleaned in general.


This is where I'll be doing the rebuild.  I took a piece of plywood and stapled a couple sheets of heavy poster paper to it.  The Standard's carbs are at the back of the bench.  By doing the rebuild on paper, I'll be able to see small parts when I drop them, and I'll be able to make notes or draw outlines if necessary.  One of the advantages to being a teacher is I have stuff like this just lying around.


I replaced the clutch lever and cable because the bike has been down, obviously on its left side.  The cable itself is fine, but the perch and the clutch cable adjuster took a beating.  I decided to try to salvage the cable by removing the adjuster. I had to (carefully) tear it off using pliers, a hammer, and a couple of flat screwdrivers. This is the end result. 


Another weird thing... when I bought the Custom, one of the reasons it was billed as a "parts bike" was because the return throttle cable was seized.  I replaced it, and threw the junk one in the trash.  When I salvaged the clutch cable, out of morbid curiosity I drug out the stuck throttle cable... and it moves!  It's fine, it seems!  I don't plan on reusing it, but I think I'll hang on to it as a spare, in case I need it.  I could also use it as a reference for when I chop the Standard.

Anyways, hopefully I'll have the gaskets next week, and I can document very closely the teardown and rebuild of these PD50 carbs.
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, ready for teardown
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2010, 12:20:18 AM »
Hey there! So, when you're looking at your floats etc, tip the whole bank upside down and see how the floats settle across the flat 'tops'.  They should be roughly parallel with the gasket mating surfaces where the float bowl meets the main carb body.  I know that's not the exact '23mm' measure, but it's a good rule of thumb, just so you can visually tell they're not nosing up or nosing down.

 Also, with the rack upside down like that, use the t your finger and tap the float down.  Does it spring right back up, or is it a little lethargic on return?  If it springs right back up with gusto, you're in good shape.  If not, the minute springs inside the float needles might be sticky, dirty, or worn.  In that case you'll want to tap out the pin that holds the float in place (gently! I find a thumb tack or thin brad usually does a good job, and if it doesn't work one way, go the other, it may be beveled.) and look at the little float needle valve hanging by the thin wire hanger from the float.  Brakekleen and a q-tip will clean residue, but if the spring's shot, it's shot.  Replacements are only a buck and these usually come with your carb kits anyway, so play it safe and replace them if you have any doubts about them at all.  Use that qtip to clean out where that jet goes in real well, too.  It should be real, real smooth by the time you're done so you know that float has a full range of free movement.  That'll minimize the possibility of stuck airbubbles and pissing carbs. :)

When you unrack your carbs, keep an eye on the tiny, light spring that goes between the two arms of the choke linkage.  Take a pic of how it goes on there.  You'll need to wind it around twice (I believe?) and it can be a real pain in the rear.  Too little and you don't get any choke action. Too much and you damage the spring and the choke still won't work right.

Also watch the heavy duty throttle closing spring.  Now, there are whispers that if you wind it half a turn less and hook it over the bracket in the back instead of all the way down against the carb body, the throttle feel @ the grip is softer, like a more modern bike.  I haven't tried this but it might be something to consider.

While you're cleaning things out, make SURE you clean/blast the accelerator pump passage way VERY WELL so you can shoot some carb cleaner through the orifice on #2 and a good strong stream will come out of all four carbs' little brass accel pump post.  If you have problems with any one carb, you can still single out that carb's passage way and blast it individually, but as these bikes are jetted so lean, the initial 'tickle' that pump can give you in starting the bike is a great thing.

Not trying to be overbearing... I've just rebuilt my carbs WAY too many times and each and every one of those things has bitten me in the a$s one way or another, at some point in time. :D
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
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Offline Hush

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, ready for teardown
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2010, 01:04:24 AM »
You'd be suprised at how well those "flat" looking "O" ring gaskets work when you run a thin coating of gasket cement over them, mine have lasted 3 years so far.
That hairy thing or dead moth was definitely the cause of your #4 flooding.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline The_Crippler

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, ready for teardown
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2010, 07:51:26 AM »
That hairy thing or dead moth was definitely the cause of your #4 flooding.

*sigh*  Early bird gets the work...or the Kiwi bird, I guess....At any rate, I was all stoked that there was a carb question I could answer, and you beat me to it.

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, ready for teardown
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2010, 09:48:13 AM »
Kit -- Thank you for the heads up.  Those are things I hadn't even thought to look out for.  It might be a week or so before I get to tear into it, but I really appreciate the advice.  Do you think I can get away with a gasket kit, or should I go ahead and source an actual rebuild kit?  I'm having a hard time tracking down a rebuild kit for my year (80); it seems most of the kits I find are for the CV carbs on the 81-82 models.

Hush -- I know it doesn't take much of a contact area, but I think I'll replace the O-rings just for my own peace of mind.  Good tip, though!

I don't know what the hell that thing by the float is, or how it got in there, but I imagine it didn't help things at all.
~ Jim

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There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, ready for teardown
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2010, 10:53:40 AM »
Anyone have any experience with these rebuild kits from CRC2?

New Exclusive Kit for CB750's '77-'78 and CB550 '77-'78
Part # CC-7778CB750NC

   

Carb Kit for ALL 4 Carbs

fits

CB750 all '77-78

CB550 all '77-'78

CB650 '79-'80

also works with

CB750 Automatics '76-'78
This kit will contain the parts for ALL 4 Carbs for some models that typically are impossible to find carb kits. We have assembled these kits using the same parts we offer separately. All the rubber parts are a Viton rubber to work more effectively with new fuels that contain a lot of alcohol additives. The kits will contain the following parts
4 - Float Bowl gaskets
4 - Float needles
6 - Fuel Crossover o-rings*
4 - Fuel Drain screw o-rings
4 - Air Screw o-rings
4 - Air screw washers

26pc Kit 69.95 (Out of stock)

20pc Kit 64.95
*no crossover o-rings


clicky for pic

Wait... does this mean my '80 PD carbs are the same as the '77-'78 CB750 and '77-'78 CB550 carbs?  I could have been searching for those models during my parts hunt?

Foster: "Biker... riiiiiight.  I'm an idiot."
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, carb rebuild kit?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2010, 11:19:11 AM »
Yes and no.

The jetting's all different, and (I believe) the spacing is different, too.  I think Manjisann used the 750 carbs, so he or Soos could fill you in better, but you CAN use that rebuild kit, but it appears to cost more than honda's OEM one.  I think from Honda you get everything in that kit except for the little silver float needles. 

Also good to source, though, from CRC2, the air cutoff valves.  They reduce popping on deceleration due to the inherently lean mixtures the bike is made for.  There are two ways to go on those- one, order all four, look at your old ones, replace the ones that need replacing and send the others back for a refund, (faster, cheaper carb fix that way) keep/replace all 4 (because if it's 30 year old rubber, it's bound to go someday) , or tear into the carbs and then only order the ones you need.  They're $30/ea and a pain in the butt to get to, but the good news is, if you do it right the first time, you won't likely have to see them again in 30 years.
Same goes for the accelerator pump off 2.  If you have any doubts about it, replace it, because you will use it quite a bit here and there.  These are our 'gift' from Honda to make these carbs comparable to CVs in that we still get a little squirt of fuel even when we whack open the throttle hard enough to essentially not have enough vacuum to get a regular amt of fuel (whereas you can whack open a Constant Velocity carb all day) Also $30, it really only needs replacing if it has pinholes in it, or has begun to delaminate.

If $150 in parts ASIDE from the gasket kit is making you cringe, there is an alternative.  It's not the best.  It's not even highly recommended, BUT... it might let you get an extra couple months out of it if you feel like doing it all again once you have the money to do it right-
Liquid electrical tape, the kind that comes in a metal can with the brush in the top, can sometimes hold delaminated spots together and seal pinhole leaks without making the rubber of the diaphragm too thick to move adequately.  Just be very, very sure to clean the rubber very, very well first (I recommend the same brake kleen you're using to spray out the other carb orifices and a clean cloth) and dab it on in a few very thin layers. 

This is a bandaid, not a fix, but it worked for me the first couple times I pieced my carbs together.
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, carb rebuild kit?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2010, 04:25:51 PM »
I just got back from the local Honda shop... they told me the gasket set they have is $52... per carb.  I can get them through servicehonda.com for $33 each, or I could go with this rebuild kit from CRC2.  Also, they told me the spark plug wrench is discontinued and unavailable.  The master cylinder rebuild kit is $55.

As it stands, I'll be going with CRC2, unless I find/am informed of another source.

Thanks for the tip about the cutoff diaphragms, Kit.  I've been working my way through your rebuild thread... what a journey!  Some of the pics are gone, though.
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, carb rebuild kit?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2010, 04:30:51 PM »
yeah... I've been meaning to put them back... that's a lot of pages to wade through, though. :D
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale

coldpyro21

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, carb rebuild kit?
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2010, 11:03:52 AM »
I just found this googling a carb kit for my bike.  I noticed several of you live in Rapid City, SD.  I got my CB650C in excellent condition, the only thing I have found wrong with it so far is that I'm missing several washers and o-rings out of the Idle air mixture screw.  I was wondering if anyone on here had any that they could spare out of a couple carbs, to see how my bike works. 

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Continuing to Clean Carbs
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2011, 12:05:35 AM »
I realize it has been ages since I last posted to this build thread.  The reason for this is it has been ages since I was able to work on the bike!

I don't really have much to post.  Since the last post, my progress consists of cleaning the #1 and #2 carbs for the rack I tore apart.  I still have yet to order a rebuild kit, though I discovered today that I'll definitely need to replace the air cutoff valve.  Some doofus with a screwdriver (i.e. me) tore the cutoff valve while removing it, and then managed to lose the itty bitty o-ring that goes between the cap and the carb body.

I did want to post a couple of before and after pics. 

Before, with the bowl off.


Crusty yumminess in the bottom of the accelerator pump.


I discovered the accelerator pump rod is a little bent.  I don't know if this is part of the accel pump rebuild/replace kit or not, so I gently persuaded it back into straightness with a ball peen hammer.


A little buildup on the piston needle.


A shot of the underside of #2.


After a bath in Simple Green and water.  I left it cold, and hit the pieces with a brass brush, and for stubborn bits, a stainless steel brush.


Not bad for a couple of hours of soak and scrub.


OK, so a lesson for those who hate to read directions: 15-minute soak in simmering, undiluted Simple Green = carb on left.  5:1 ratio of Simple Green to water, plus no heat, allowing to soak approximately 1 hour = carb on right.


I'm hoping to have everything nice and clean by the time school gets out, two weeks from today.  I'm a teacher, and also working on my Master's degree, hence the lack of progress over the school year.  After that, I'm hoping the combination of student loan refunds and summer job income will cover the expense of getting this bike roadworthy again.

To do list:

Clean tank.
Clean/rebuild carbs (may go with parts found here.  If I get paid sooner, might go with Kit's suggestion for OEM).  I also want to try to replace all the o-rings, just in case.
Clean/rebuild front master cylinder.
Clean/rebuild front brake caliper.
Clutch adjustment.
New tires.
Change oil.
Tapered steering head bearings.
Change fork oil.
New spark plugs/wires (any suggestions for the boots?  I know I can buy wire and cut to length).
Adjust points.
Install front turn signals.
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Carbs out, carb rebuild kit?
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2011, 05:36:50 AM »
I am planning on just returning the Custom to running condition.  The Custom is mostly for my wife, since she loves the bench-seat bikes.  The Standard, which is still hiding under a Hula hoop, I have big plans for.  I originally wanted to chop it, 70s style, but after educating myself in such things, I think I want a bagger instead.  After much searching, I finally found a bike that has been done the way I want to do mine.

Bear in mind, this is not my bike, but it looks an awful lot like how I want mine to look when I'm done with it.






~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

Offline Pinhead

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Continuing to clean carbs; inspiration pics
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2011, 01:29:35 PM »
I see that you're worried about your ignition modules... Generally they still have life left in them even with the goo melted out.

You may want to check out the GM HEI upgrade though. Parts are cheaper and it makes a LOT stronger spark.
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

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By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
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Offline JimJamerino

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Continuing to clean carbs; inspiration pics
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2011, 01:43:06 PM »
I see that you're worried about your ignition modules... Generally they still have life left in them even with the goo melted out.

You may want to check out the GM HEI upgrade though. Parts are cheaper and it makes a LOT stronger spark.

This I have read, and I have since learned that Hondaman's iggy won't work with the 650 system anyways.  I'm totally going for the HEI upgrade, and will have questions for you in the future.  At the moment, I'm still cleaning carbs.  The 650C is my wife's bike, and she wants to be involved in the build, so I'm waiting to clean 3 & 4 until she can help out.  Thanks for the suggestion!
~ Jim

formerly "emperorspartacus"

There are old bikers.  There are dumb bikers.  There are no old, dumb bikers.

My CB650C rebuild http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=74212.0

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Re: 1980 Honda CB650C: Continuing to clean carbs; inspiration pics
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2011, 02:38:55 PM »
Don't worry about the slight bend in the accelerator pump rod, they all seem to have that, either it was designed that way or over the years they become slightly bent through being hammered by the throttle motion.
Damn whose 750 IS that it's fantastic, I usually am a traditionalist but that is budy georgous!
I think I read that HM had now designed an upgrade for his system so 650's can use it, ask him. :)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!