Author Topic: Choosing a hand gun  (Read 7471 times)

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Offline pidaster

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2010, 07:13:51 PM »
.22 Browning semi auto. Likes been said, cheap to use on the range (rounds wise).
loaded with hollow points in the home, one in each knee and the same in each shoulder, he's not going to trouble you any and you'll never have it on your conscience of having killed a human AH. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)

PS, we don't have hand guns anymore in the UK. :(
You shoot somebody in each knee and the shoulders and he will own everything you used to own.
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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2010, 07:17:33 PM »
depends on who you are..

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Offline Shenanigans

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2010, 08:01:31 PM »
I considered the shot-gun vs handgun debate for a while but for me I think the latter of the two is what works best for me. I have a couple of other guns. A 22 revolver and rifle so this will not be my ONLY weekend plinking gun. I am familiar with the (very loose here  ::) ) laws and I hope that I never ever have to use it for defense. That is not a bridge I ever want to cross.

I have a friend bringing in his 92 for me to try out tomorrow.
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Offline weekend_junkie

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2010, 08:22:19 PM »
Ask your buddy to field strip it for you.  Cleaning a 92 takes 4 minutes, making it more fun to take to the range.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2010, 01:24:48 AM »
Guess I might go another way. Not trying to stir controversy but I would just get a .22 for range shooting but for home defense, I would do a short barreled 12 gauge with a full spread bore using buckshot. I suppose you could do slug too. Shotguns are fairly cheap compared to some pistols, depending on what you get of course. You can get additional barrels and can have a good time skeet shooting, deer, or bird hunting.
The other nice thing with a shotgun is since it spreads, you do not have to be all that accurate, plus the psychological aspect of pumping a round into the chamber will usually either make an invader freeze or run in fear. If they do not run, good chance they may be hopped up on something and in which case, not many human bodies will withstand a blast from a 12.

Otherwise if a shot gun is not your bag, I second the big plated revolver. Cocking that hammer has close to the same effect as chambering a shell.
Bottom line is I believe you only get 1 shot to stop your attacker, you must make it count. Unless you shoot with it a lot(for accuracy)and have an excellent load, a 9mm is not that round. As stated before, a 357 will usually allow you to practice with 38 and that work good as for short range, accuracy between the 2 shouldn't be too much. Otherwise, .44, .454, or .45 would be the loads I would prefer for home defense if I did not use a shotgun.

just my thoughts
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2010, 03:28:37 AM »
.22 Browning semi auto. Likes been said, cheap to use on the range (rounds wise).
loaded with hollow points in the home, one in each knee and the same in each shoulder, he's not going to trouble you any and you'll never have it on your conscience of having killed a human AH. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)

PS, we don't have hand guns anymore in the UK. :(
You shoot somebody in each knee and the shoulders and he will own everything you used to own.

I think you'll find that it depends on where you live. ;D

Do you still have a drag strip Hattiesburg way?, seem to remember it was for sale a while back.

Sam. ;)
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Offline pidaster

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2010, 04:39:37 AM »
.22 Browning semi auto. Likes been said, cheap to use on the range (rounds wise).
loaded with hollow points in the home, one in each knee and the same in each shoulder, he's not going to trouble you any and you'll never have it on your conscience of having killed a human AH. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)

PS, we don't have hand guns anymore in the UK. :(
You shoot somebody in each knee and the shoulders and he will own everything you used to own.

I think you'll find that it depends on where you live. ;D

Do you still have a drag strip Hattiesburg way?, seem to remember it was for sale a while back.

Sam. ;)
The drag strip is still there but it's a fest hole of rednecks and beer on mud bog nights and thug wanna be types on race nights. The police are out there quite often.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2010, 05:52:30 AM »
.22 Browning semi auto. Likes been said, cheap to use on the range (rounds wise).
loaded with hollow points in the home, one in each knee and the same in each shoulder, he's not going to trouble you any and you'll never have it on your conscience of having killed a human AH. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)

PS, we don't have hand guns anymore in the UK. :(
You shoot somebody in each knee and the shoulders and he will own everything you used to own.

I think you'll find that it depends on where you live. ;D

Do you still have a drag strip Hattiesburg way?, seem to remember it was for sale a while back.

Sam. ;)
The drag strip is still there but it's a fest hole of rednecks and beer on mud bog nights and thug wanna be types on race nights. The police are out there quite often.

Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a wide berth then. ;)
Magnolia dragway in Gulfport got a bit like that in the late 80s, I heard a guy got murdered at one meet. :o

Sam. ;)
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Offline bender01

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2010, 06:06:07 AM »
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2010, 09:30:54 AM »
Quote
30/30 lever carbine,,shotguns too messy,whos gonna clean up?
Will still not put someone down as well as a 12.
A 12 is king in terms of ease of use, psychological factor, and stopping power without over-penetration that could potentially injury or kill others. Quite simply there is nothing that will do the job as well. Is it messy? Who cares, you are protecting your family not worrying about the paint on your walls or your carpet. Those are replaceable, your family is not. :)

Offline HedNut

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »
You American's are nutz with your loaded guns in the house! Mine are all locked up in a case and for hunting only...(ammo in another case with another key)  If somebody comes into my house with a gun threatening me... they can have my #$%*... if they aim to shoot...I'll take the bullets and then fart in their general direction....probably a dirty blood fart.... they'll think twice next time....    On the other hand if they come anywhere near my wife...I'll go canuk-amakazi on their gun' yielding arses...  At that point it would take at least four 12ga. slugs to stop the merciless beating...and probably a couple hundred rounds from a AK to slow my endoscopic throat punches.....

All kidding aside.... I'm very glad it's a super-dooper rare occurance up here. Hope it stays that way.

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Offline medic09

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2010, 10:09:45 PM »
A few thoughts by way of response/summary:

1.  If you are going to point a gun at someone, you had better be ready to kill them.  Nothing less.  Most of us, even the experienced ones, are amateurs with guns.  Farting around with intimidation, and wounding, etc. will most likely turn things worse for you.  You must be genuinely resolved and prepared to kill this person.  Emotionally, morally, tactically.  See Bobby's earlier comments.  That is the only good use for a gun in our amateur hands.  Hopefully, they will back down and you won't have to pull the trigger.  But be prepared to shoot to kill with the first double tap, or don't pull out the gun at all.

1a.  Ignoring the law for the moment:  if the shadowy figure in the dark who broke into your house is clearly holding a gun, shoot to kill.  First.  We've said guns aren't games.  That also means don't take chances.  If there is a clear and immediate threat, that's not the time to mess around with warnings and such.  Not in the real world.  We amateurs aren't prepared to entire a gun battle with unknown assailants.  Especially not with other family members in the house.

2.  The right gun for the job is the one you can use well.  If you're not a soldier constantly practicing with multiple weapons, you should simply use what works for you.  It has to fit your hand(s).  It has to be manageable in terms of weight and recoil.  It has to be a size that works for you, and works in the environment where it will likely be used or carried.  I am not a fan of high power, long weapons inside a crowd or a building.  Yes, I've used (as many have) short barreled assault rifles (Galil, Kalach, M4/16) in built up areas, but that's mostly because we were compromising on one weapon for mixed, changing environments.  I don't want to swing a rile or shotgun around the doors of my house.  It seems to me that a weapon for primarily home protection ought to be a pistol.  Of course, if you're Nervous Nellie home alone out on the prairie surrounded by bad guys, the shotgun may be better for the circumstances.

2a.  A large, high power weapon is not suited for the small handed, not-strong shooter.  If I can quickly and accurately put 2-4 9mm rounds in my target with my 8 shot pistol, that's better than doing a bad job with a bigger round or a larger clip.  Personally, I don't think too small is good either.  There needs to be some stopping power.  I knew a guy who was shot at close range with a .22 .  It really pissed him off, and he emptied his clip into the shooter.  I haven't regularly carried a pistol in 20 years; but back then our popular setup was alternate rounds in the magazine, copper jackets and hollow points.

3.  Safe, accurate use of a firearm requires constant, frequent practice.  There is no choice and no substitute.  Practice with the weapon you will use.  No surprises.  A firearm is a commitment.  Practice and stay good with it.  Be ready to use it well.  Pray to God that you never have to.  Don't hesitate when you do.

4.  Taking all this into account, the gun doesn't need to look or sound scary.  It needs to be the one you can use quickly, accurately, reliably.

My opinion is worth just what you paid for it.   ;)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2010, 06:44:02 AM »
+1

If you take nothing else away from this thread, read and remember Mordechai's words. And, do not go up to a Vet that has been in combat and ask him how many people they wasted and how it felt. That is an inappropriate question.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2010, 07:49:21 AM »
Couple I highly recommend for new shooters: Beretta 92D or the Sig 229. Both are double action only, and ADs are nearly impossible. Both are extremely reliable, rugged, simple to operate, and accurate too! (I like the Sig better, but it's a bit pricey)
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2010, 08:35:03 AM »
Well med, most of what you said I wont dispute but if you ask the firearms community, most will choose a shotgun, even a 20 gauge. I doubt swinging it around doors would be that bad since you can always fire from the hip with enough accuracy given the spread of a straight bore. Unlike needing to have you arms extended to accurately aim a pistol. I wouldnt call it being a nervous nellie as on average, a pump shotgun is simpler to operate, easy to aim, and very reliable.  But as you said, it is an opinion.

Offline Blueridgerunner

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2010, 05:49:18 AM »
As the late Bill Jordan (author, former border patrol officer and old school badass) once told me, "It's not what you carry, but what you can use. If you shoot him in the foot with a .357 and he shoots you between the eyes with a .22, who won the gunfight"

just sayin
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Offline luder

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2010, 07:43:33 AM »
Well put medic...... Probably about 20 guns in my house, if need be I would grab a pistol, have 3. A 22,357,and a 9mm which would be my go to, fast, easy and sitting close by. A different pistol in a different closet.......luder

Offline cobra2411

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2010, 10:10:16 AM »
Quote
if the shadowy figure in the dark who broke into your house is clearly holding a gun, shoot to kill.

You shoot to stop, not to kill. If they die as a result - So be it. In many parts of the country there are still civil penalties to worry about even if it was a justified shooting. A dirtbag attorney will argue who make you judge, jury and executioner and that Stu Pid Criminal did not deserve to die for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

With that said you shoot center mass. No trying to be fancy trying to shoot a foot or arm if your life is in danger. Center mass and shoot until the person is no longer a threat.

As far as guns for home protection I like an 18 or 20" barrel 12 gauge. For hand guns my personal preference is a 1911 .45 cal. When I got my first one the stupid 10 round limit was in effect. So my options were 8 rounds of .45 or 10 rounds of 9mm. Now that you can get high capacity 9mm might not be a bad choice. My backup is a S&W 638 5-shot 38. I'm a big fan of revolvers so no complaints if you look there... I'd go with a 38 or 357. A 44mag is only effective if your home is being invaded by polar bears. Although 44 specials in a 629 with a 6" barrel are pretty sweet. Also I can't see to many people sticking around if you lit off a 44mag in their direction.... "HOLY S***! He's got a cannon!" I usually get visitors at the indoor range wondering what the hell is making all that noise when I pull out the 44's... :D

Go to the range and try a bunch of different stuff. Go home and think about it and go back to the range and try the ones you like. Narrow it down to something you're comfortable with and has a natural aim in your hands. If you need it in a defense situation you don't want to have to think about much. Also make sure you get to the range at least every couple of months and shoot something similar in feel to your defense ammo. I practice at 7 yards which is the longest distance I'd have to shoot in my house and I can draw and fire and hit center mass repeatedly without thinking much. I pray I'm never in that situation but feel it would be more of a reaction then a thought out decision.

And lastly don't talk to anyone without talking to a lawyer first! There are very few states that shield civil penalties for justified shootings so you want to control what gets released and you definitely don't want to talk right after. Write it down and get it to a lawyer so he can help you release your official statement.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2010, 01:27:26 PM »
As the late Bill Jordan (author, former border patrol officer and old school badass) once told me, "It's not what you carry, but what you can use. If you shoot him in the foot with a .357 and he shoots you between the eyes with a .22, who won the gunfight"

just sayin
He also said "There is no second place winner". Great book and everyone should see if they can get a copy.
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Offline Blueridgerunner

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2010, 01:36:10 PM »
Yep. Center of mass, keep pulling the trigger until he goes down and stays there. Also, you are dead on when you say that even if you're well within your rights, be prepared for big legal hassles.
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Offline sniper1

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2010, 05:06:14 PM »
"Drastic Plastic" "Combat Tupperware" - Glock is the way to go.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2010, 10:18:48 PM »
Propaganda... anyone know what that is ?
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Offline db22

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2010, 10:22:14 PM »
Propaganda... anyone know what that is ?
Expand on your statement.  It's way too late for me to figure out what you're getting at with so little to go on.
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Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2010, 10:29:48 PM »
      ;) 8) 
                     

       I also have a S&W .44 MAGNUM   ;)

                     
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Choosing a hand gun
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2010, 12:44:07 AM »
I have to say I was highly impressed by Mordechai's post.  His thought's closely parallel my own.

A couple improvements would be: not to ever admit to shooting to kill.  Even if you did so, you tell any and everyone that you shot to stop the attack.  If they ask why you emptied the gun, just say that was all you had loaded, at the time.
The second is the use of 9 mm or other High velocity round in an urban environment.
For home defense, you must be responsible for every round that comes out the barrel, whether it hits the intended target or not.  Over-penetration is quite something to consider, as the standard interior walls don't stop much in the way of firearm projectiles. Generally, the higher the muzzle velocity the more penetration, or over penetration, you can expect.
9mm is great for going through car doors.  It can also go though interior and exterior walls to be finally stopped by your neighbor's child.  Further, 9mm ball type ammunition can go through your target and hit something/someone behind it.  I view this round as possibly one of the worst for a home defense choice, for reason of control.  Hollow points only do a bit better, provided, clothing/drywall doesn't seal up the hollow point before expansion of the projectile occurs.  Then it simply behaves like ball ammunition.  (Ball was developed to inflict injury on the battlefield to as many opponents as possible, btw.)

After studying ballistics, and trauma effects, it is clear that proper shot placement is your best hope for a satisfactory outcome.  However, casual range time does not give the same physical effects as the fight or flight response, with corespondent heart rate, breathing, and adrenaline effects on the human body.  I find that anyone who thinks they can maintain a tight grouping of shots with anything under those conditions, is extremely rare, or they are VERY well trained.  Perhaps if you really have ice in your veins (rather than just thinking you do) you can actually perform a knee or shoulder shot, without having a flier destroy something you didn't intend.  This is why it is commonly taught to aim for center of mass.

Muzzle control should be one of the first things you learn about a firearm.  Inside a dwelling a long muzzle can work against you if you intend on clearing your own house, as the end of the barrel precedes your sight when entering a room.  If the intruder grabs the muzzle and points it toward your child's room, is your response, to pull the trigger?  Using a shotgun and aiming from the hip looks good in movies.  But, I have to doubt the accuracy of such practice, and a 12 ga recoil, makes it questionable if the gun will even be retained for a second shot.  20 ga would likely be a better choice if a shotgun is still the choice.
I can't believe I read a recommendation for using slugs in shotguns for home defense.  These will go though several car doors.
Even with shot shells, the shot spread of shotgun at 25 ft, averages 8 inches, being very capable of missing a target.

You don't have a gun to intimidate (though there are times when it can be used for that).  In my opinion, racking the shotgun slide for audible effect is a dumb ass, showboat move.  If you are going into action with a weapon, it should be ready to use before entering combat.  Further, giving away information about your position, and armament to the enemy, is just plain stupid.  Also, pump shotguns need two hands for effective use.  I'll probably have a flashlight in one of my hands for target identification.  Then again, if you're wounded in one arm, the pump shotgun becomes a single shot firearm.

For residential home defense a frangible round is preferred.  This allows all the energy from the projectile to be expended with or within the first object(s) it hits.  Don't care if I destroy a wall, I don't want the person behind it injured with a flier.  If it hits the intended target and turns flesh to hamburger, well, the point was to stop the perpetrator.  The Glaser safety slug was developed just for this purpose.  The Glasers are the first rounds in my .45s for home defense, then comes the Hydra-Shoks, Golden Saber, or Winchester Silver Tip rounds.
The .45 Glasers will penetrate one layer of 5/8 sheetrock, a few will dribble out the 2nd layer of sheetrock.  (9mm Glasers penetrate 6+ layers of sheetrock.)
Yes I know, the Hydra-Shoks, Golden Saber, or Winchester Silver Tip rounds will penetrate 10 or 12 layers of sheetrock.  But, If the attack keeps closing distance, these rounds are less likely to spread, and they will penetrate excess clothing to reach vital organs and bone structures to stop the attack.
If the .45s are too big for your hands, then consider the .40 size pistols.  The Sig p229 has been reliable with every ammo type I put through it.  And, I don't instinctively shoot high with it like i tend to do with the Glocks, probably due to the grip angle.  The Glocks are fine guns, mind you, they just don't have the right ergonomics for me, as I am used to the 1911 (and Sig) grip angles).

If you still wish to choose a shotgun, please use tiny bird shot #8 or #9 in a home defense situation.  At close range, the shot still behaves similar to a slug.  But, the tiny pellets are much more easily stopped (or rendered ineffective) by interior walls. 

That's my view on the subject, anyway.  FWIW.

Cheers,


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