Author Topic: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!  (Read 23726 times)

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Offline scottly

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2011, 10:34:50 PM »

((((( Why Does it HAVE to run on 4 carbs.????....
  
It will run fine on one carb, and will be simpler, as no need to synchronize 4 carbs, BUT IT WILL NEVER RUN AS WELL AS THE 4 CARB SETUP!!!!!
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline tomsweb1

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2011, 10:40:11 PM »
Exactly. What is your aversion to the four carb setup? They're easy to take care of, really, once you know how.
 Syncing up your carbs is easier than setting your timing. It sounds scary, but it's not really. Other than that, you just have to make sure they're clean and the rubbers are good. Simple stuff.
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Offline Jt550

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2011, 10:44:21 PM »

((((( Why Does it HAVE to run on 4 carbs.????....
  
It will run fine on one carb, and will be simpler, as no need to synchronize 4 carbs, BUT IT WILL NEVER RUN AS WELL AS THE 4 CARB SETUP!!!!!

Define: as well..... Slow to accelerate? Laggy top end???

(it almost seems like Im beating a dead horse.... Yet lively discussion is interesting in my F-ed up mind.....)

---Like this one---- See below...
Tyler Durden: You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f*<king khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

-78 CB550k with a BIG #$%* Eating Grin-

Offline scottly

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2011, 10:44:42 PM »
On the last page of this link is a fuzzy pic of a 1-4 manifold.http://www.slickschoppers.com/TechArticles/Posa4.htm
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Offline Jt550

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2011, 10:48:45 PM »
Exactly. What is your aversion to the four carb setup? They're easy to take care of, really, once you know how.
 Syncing up your carbs is easier than setting your timing. It sounds scary, but it's not really. Other than that, you just have to make sure they're clean and the rubbers are good. Simple stuff.

I hate the design.... An EVERY SINGLE BANK i find is a piece of sh!t!!!..... I just had a bank in my hands yesterday... Looked at them and was like,,,, (WTF who needs all this crap, PLUS they weigh a ton)
Tyler Durden: You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f*<king khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

-78 CB550k with a BIG #$%* Eating Grin-

Offline scottly

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2011, 11:00:30 PM »
My Webers weigh about 1 1/2 times more than a stock bank of carbs. I go to extremes to shave every gram of weight off my bike, but I chose to run the Webs because they are the best carburetors ever made, IMHO. In any case, one carb bore per cylinder has been proven over and over to be more efficient than a single carb bore feeding multiple cylinders.

BTW, check out the line at the bottom of my posts.
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 11:06:18 PM by scottly »
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Jt550

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2011, 11:04:39 PM »
On the last page of this link is a fuzzy pic of a 1-4 manifold.http://www.slickschoppers.com/TechArticles/Posa4.htm

I bet these were never mass produced..... ever see one in the flesh???...
Tyler Durden: You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f*<king khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

-78 CB550k with a BIG #$%* Eating Grin-

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2011, 01:50:10 AM »
On the last page of this link is a fuzzy pic of a 1-4 manifold.http://www.slickschoppers.com/TechArticles/Posa4.htm

I've got a brand spanking (well, new old stock) Posa carb sitting in a box here, I've had it for 10 years now, and I'm still hoping that I'll find a 750 manifold for it one day, just so I can experience that amazing increase in power and top end speed!  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline cobrajunkie

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2011, 03:35:29 AM »

((((( Why Does it HAVE to run on 4 carbs.????....
  
It will run fine on one carb, and will be simpler, as no need to synchronize 4 carbs, BUT IT WILL NEVER RUN AS WELL AS THE 4 CARB SETUP!!!!!

Define: as well..... Slow to accelerate? Laggy top end???

(it almost seems like Im beating a dead horse.... Yet lively discussion is interesting in my F-ed up mind.....)

---Like this one---- See below...





Offline Jt550

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2011, 06:23:30 AM »


This is the route I think Im taking.

But for comparison sake I will get that BIG O BANK of carbs & try them too...

NOW SHUT UP........................... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-*

« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 06:25:29 AM by Jt500 »
Tyler Durden: You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f*<king khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

-78 CB550k with a BIG #$%* Eating Grin-

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2011, 06:45:16 AM »
I think the best inline 4, single carb setup I have ever seen was on the old Ford 2.3 turbo motor from the Thunderbird Super Coupe and the Turbo Mustang GT from the early eighties.  This design had curved runners (not a log), which were curved in such a way as to be equal, or nearly equal, in length.  Also, the carb was a Holley-Weber collaboration.

In any event, fuel injection soon arrived on the scene, and then the cars were able to make much more horsepower because of the improved fuel distribution of multi-port fuel injection, even though they had (and still have to this day) a single throttle-body.

My personal opinion is that for pre-fuel injection machines, the single carb per cylinder model is superior because it optimizes the fuel distribution.

Yes, single carb log manifolds, and dual carb manifolds will work, but will never get the maximum HP.

I used to own a 1958 Jaguar XK150 which came from the factor with 2 carbs, mounted on two 1->3 manifolds.  Of course the later XK150S had 3 carbs, mounted on three 1->2 manifolds.  The Jaguar XK engine remained basically the same otherwise.  The XK150S made MUCH more power.  Since my car did not have matching numbers, etc., I later upgraded to the triple-carb setup in order to enjoy the improved power.  Yes, I enjoyed it very much.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2011, 08:13:19 AM »
Posting while drunk again, eh?
It's OK, I've done it myself on more than one occasion.

In your other thread entitled the same thing, I made a quick drawing of what might work better in your single carb situation.

Your current design will not feed equal amounts of air and fuel across the cylinders. You'll also be dealing with very different intake velocities, and restrictions, on the outside cylinders.

You can laugh at me all you like, but your design will continue to be horrible regardless. :)

You mean this one???

Yep.

And, since it seems you are no doing 1 into 2 manifolds, why bother making them, since they are already made by cyclex, and will probably cost about the same for you to buy from them as to purchase and fabricate your own? The math, design and fabrication have already been done for you.
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Offline Flying J

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2011, 09:00:16 AM »
And now were back to page 1 where i suggested cycle x. LOL

I like the "big idea". I think 1 carb on a 750 would look funny just because the intakes would not be the same length. I do like the 2-4 carb set up that cycle x has. not sure how that does for performance but if Twotireds numbers are right you could get more surface area that way.

Offline widelyunknown

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2011, 09:50:55 AM »
It can work.  For some value of work.  Don't expect the high RPM of the original four carb set up, or the power.

4 - 22mm carb throats give 1520 MM squared  area.

1 - 34mm Carb will only have 908 mm Squared area.  So, breathing will be limited.

The log manifold will also have turbulence due to four inlet pulses disturbing upsetting smooth flow.  As pictured, I expect the outer cylinders to receive different mixtures than the center cylinders.
You may well get excellent fuel economy with the approach, though.  Just don't expect to go 98 MPH as the original did.

IMO this is the best response so far. What he's referring to is choke flow. There is a limit to how much air you can flow through a given area. carbs need to be sized to optimize flow. intake manifolds need to be optimized for flow as well.

The problem that no one has directly addressed is intake pulses air does not flow continuously through the engine but rather as pulses as intake valves open and shut. A carb helps to mix fuel into air and this mixture then flows to the cylinder. The problem then, is this pathway to the cylinder.

In a log style manifold, some are going to happen. The cylinder at the end of the log is going to run horrible. Fuel is heavier than air and due to gravity, it will fall out of suspension as it travels a long distance. This results in puddling of the fuel. As the puddle grows it's gonna get sucked into a cylinder. That's not better. So you'll have a cylinder running lean and then going super rich.

1 carb into 4 cylinders, non log style is better but not by much. if the carb is in the center, the two inner cylinders will run rich and the two outer ones will run lean. The intake pulses from the two center cylinders will be more powerful (less distance to carb) and draw the denser fuel/air mixture. The closer the carb is to the intake ports, the more dramatic this function will occur.

2 carbs into 4 cylinders. getting better. the problem is not as bad as above but now you have two opposing pulses drawing the air/fuel mixture. This will create turbulence, I didn't mention this above, but the problems above are worse than turbulence. because the cylinders are not firing at the same time, there will be moments when cyl. 1's intake valves are open and drawing fuel/air, then they slam shut and shortly after the fuel/air is now redirected to cyl.2. this isn't efficient.

4 carbs into 4 cylinders. efficient, most effective fueling, no lean cylinders, best tuning. this is why super sports (gixxers, gsxrs as an example) ran 1 carb per cylinder before fuel injection.

8 carb's V8s: this was never done due to complexity and expense on a mass produced vehicle. Problems of cylinders running rich/lean were common and lead to much development as far as intake manifolds were considered. And the issue of puddling arose from this R&D.
However..... hi-power, efficient V-8s do run ITBs (individual throttle bodies).
http://www.streetfire.net/video/toyota-1uzfe-engine-with-itbs-revving_7172.htm  This is a video of a toyota V8 with ITBs. more expensive, but when related to performance, better.

So can you run a 1 carb to 4 cylinder intake set-up. Sure anything is possible. A monkey was sent into space.

Is it better, no. rich/lean problems, intake pulse problems.

Ask the monkey what space was like.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2011, 11:25:10 AM »
It can be done, It WILL BE DONE and YOU CAN ALL EAT YOUR WORDS WHEN I TARE ASS THOUGH MY CITY!!! ))))

 ;D  You know, this sounds a lot like the bar drunk picking a fight with the biggest guy in the bar.
Ignore physics at you own peril.  ;D

I mentioned inlet pulses in an early post.
The inlet flow is not a constant.  It only flows when the intake valve is open, which is, at best, 1/4 of the time per cylinder.  Worse, once all the flow gets up to speed, the intake valve slams shut, producing a reflected wave.  Ever been to the ocean and see a wave hit a barrier wall?  Didn't the water then move back toward the ocean?  Same thing occurs in an inlet tunnel to the intake valve and is called reversion.  These reversion pulses have a frequency, and are timed differently, as in staggered, for each cylinder.  A single carb venturi will see four of these reversion pulses, and this will effect the a/f mixture delivered.  Even with a two carb log manifold, the reversion pulses from one inlet will arrive back at the venturi when the other inlet is drawing fuel at some RPM(s) and this timing will depend on runner length between the venturi and the intake valve.  Then there is the firing order to consider, which for the SOHC4 is 1,2,4,3.  In real time, to make the reversion and flow pulses equidistant, you need to pair the 1 and 4 cylinders with each other, to make any kind of even, average flow, as with this pairing, they are timed 180 degrees from each other.  Pairing 1 with 2 gives a 90 degree phase separation of pulses, which gives some rather "interesting" modal aberrations/interactions over an applied varied RPM range.

Four carbs and independent runners for four cylinders allow one to ignore all the adjacent cylinder inlet and reversion interaction physics.  Log manifolds do not.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2011, 11:49:07 AM »
I didn't bother with any of that stuff, as it's a bunch of words for someone who doesn't want to hear them. What he wants to hear is that it is a fantastic idea that will work even better than the 4 carb rack setup with the added perk of simplicity.

Since I can't tell him that, I kept it to a minimum.
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Offline MasterChief750

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2011, 11:58:42 AM »
what about using a 4bbl carb then you have 1 throat per cylinder and only one carb.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2011, 12:17:37 PM »
4 bbls are 2 primary and 2 secondary.  Also, all dump right into intake manifold in same space.  Not one per cylinder.  Sorry.


what about using a 4bbl carb then you have 1 throat per cylinder and only one carb.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2011, 12:21:42 PM »
Don't forget Hilborn mechanical fuel injection.  That was 8 throttle-bodies for 8 cylinders.  It worked great at wide-open-throttle for drag racing, but pretty much sucked everywhere else in terms of performance.  I'm sure that if it had been done with vacuum feedback (like CV carbs), decent choke/startup fuel enrichener, etc., it could have been much more streetable.
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Offline widelyunknown

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2011, 12:34:58 PM »
Hilborn's are sweet. The orifice that the fuel is injected out is constant and the flow / pressure is determined by a fuel pump run off the engine (varies with rpm). The orifice is chosen for WOT. I've wondered if you could do a return line after the pump / before the throttle bodies and use some way to bleed pressure so you could have different 'manual' tunes for partial throttle.

but then I'm a broke college student who can't afford Hilborn's, let alone and engine/car to put them in.

(and sorry for hijacking the thread.)
(and sorry for misspellings / grammatical errors, I wrote my first post during discussion)

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2011, 12:43:51 PM »
Yes, Porsche's CIS (same as Jaguar's first Jetronic, I believe) does something like this with fuel pressure, at least in the warm-up regulator (WUR).  They also have something in the path of the air flow, a door that opens proportionally to the amount of air flowing into the engine.  The "barn door" works as a fuel pressure regulator to increase and decrease the fuel pressure, thus controlling how much fuel is injected through the mechanical injectors.

Hilborn's are sweet. The orifice that the fuel is injected out is constant and the flow / pressure is determined by a fuel pump run off the engine (varies with rpm). The orifice is chosen for WOT. I've wondered if you could do a return line after the pump / before the throttle bodies and use some way to bleed pressure so you could have different 'manual' tunes for partial throttle.

but then I'm a broke college student who can't afford Hilborn's, let alone and engine/car to put them in.

(and sorry for hijacking the thread.)
(and sorry for misspellings / grammatical errors, I wrote my first post during discussion)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2011, 01:17:45 PM »
Log type intake manifolds are not new.  The first pic below is from a 1927 Model T.  It maxed out at 45 MPH.
1400RPM@35 MPH, 1600RPM@40 MPH, 1800RPM@45 MPH.  I found it offered for $45 with a google search.

However, I think the max RPM for the T is like a high idle speed for the SOHC4.

Second picture is a hop up for the model T.  You can see all the benefits touted for the "upgrade".  These were real screamers in their day.  :)

I found log type intake manifolds with single carbs in 1931, too.  I'm sure there must me more.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Flying J

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2011, 01:31:46 PM »
Well then could i find some way to run the four carbs with only 1 jet in each instead of 2? That would make them way less complicated to work on.



 ;)


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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2011, 01:54:50 PM »
Not sure if this alread posted....

I have a Posa 4 into 1 that I probably don't have time to work on...
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Offline Flying J

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Re: Riddle me this, riddle me that, a four into one carb could it do that!!
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2011, 02:00:49 PM »
On the last page of this link is a fuzzy pic of a 1-4 manifold.http://www.slickschoppers.com/TechArticles/Posa4.htm

I've got a brand spanking (well, new old stock) Posa carb sitting in a box here, I've had it for 10 years now, and I'm still hoping that I'll find a 750 manifold for it one day, just so I can experience that amazing increase in power and top end speed!  ;D

talk to terry.