Author Topic: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?  (Read 2046 times)

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theunrulychef

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Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« on: April 14, 2006, 05:51:25 AM »
This is more of a theoretical question.  I'm not looking to troubleshoot, just learn more about the bikes.  How does the ignition system know that the engine is under load?

A while back, I popped the main fuse under high load, twice going up steep hills.  All connectors on the bike had already been cleaned or replaced when this happened.  I've since corrected the problem by replacing the battery and am currently in the middle of a rebuild, but I'm curious as to what might have caused it.  From what I know about the electrical systems on these old machines, the plugs, points/EI, and coils should all just be based on rpm, right? Why would an extra load on the engine cause a spike in alternator amperage (I'm assuming that must be what popped the fuse).

More info:
77 CB750F2
Regulator was set for  14.5V @ 4-5k rpm - Can't remember exactly; It was set to book specs
Coils were going bad, but only gave problems in wet weather - shorting to ground - both times this happened it was dry
Correct fuses, but modern blade type instead of glass cylinders
Boyer Brandnson Electronic Ignition
Plugs had been recently bead blasted
5kohm plug caps
Timing was correct

Thanks,
Jay in Philly

Offline Bodi

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2006, 10:03:15 AM »
With points ignition, the power draw is constant regardless of RPM; the dwell angle on the points sets the percentage of crank rotation where the points are closed and drawing power. They open and close more often as RPM increases but they are closed the same percentage of time so the power draw is the same.
EI may draw more with higher RPM depending on how the circuit works but it wouldn't be a big difference.
Nothing electrical should change with throttle, climbing hills, etc.
So your fuse blowing remains a mystery.

eldar

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2006, 11:19:02 AM »
Well here is a theory about the fuse blowing. While the points always draw the same amount of power, as your rpm's go up, they are going to draw that same amount of power at a faster rate. This will cause a more steady draw through he fuse maybe overheating it and blowing it?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2006, 02:54:15 PM »
This is more of a theoretical question.  I'm not looking to troubleshoot, just learn more about the bikes.  How does the ignition system know that the engine is under load?

Hmm a trick question?
An ignition trigger can know about RPM due to the frequency of its triggering.  I don't think it does know about developed engine power.
There is a lot I don't know about the Boyer Brandson ignition.  Got a schematic reference to post?
It's possible it may draw more power at higher switching speeds.  The switch device inside may have slow on-off or off-on switch times.  Or worse asymmetrical switch times, that can effect the duty cycle of the power used.  Like if it turns on fast but turns off slow.  The effective duty cycle then changes with frequency.
Contrary to previously posted misconceptions, duty cycle (ratio of on to off states) should remain constant throughout frequency changes.  It doesn't matter if you flip your light switch every two days or two hours during a given month, at the end of a 30 day billing cycle you will be charged for 15 days of lighting power.

Does the Boyer Brandson still use the mechanical advance?  By counting the pulses per unit of time, it's possible for a unit to change the pulse timing start and duration in a relational manner.  IE, electronic advance curves, and ignition coil charge durations.

A while back, I popped the main fuse under high load, twice going up steep hills.  Why would an extra load on the engine cause a spike in alternator amperage (I'm assuming that must be what popped the fuse).

Sounds like troubleshooting, you sly trickster. ;D  Be aware that assumptions can interfere with good troubleshooting practise.  The alternator can only provide more amperage if the load demands it.  Also, be aware that the charging system is NOT fused between it and the battery.  The main fuse is situated between the battery and the bikes load devices.  Also, consider that your fuse issue may not be related to the ignition system.

I notice increased vibration with high power settings.  I also imagine the battery will be closer to the 14.5V charging cutoff point while the engine is reving for awhile.
A couple more things I don't know:
1. The main fuse rating. What is yours?
2. The total electrical load going through the main fuse. Do you know?

Have you made any electrical load changes to the bike besides the ignition module?  Halogen headlight?  Brighter bulbs anywhere else?

Did you increase main fuse rating to correspond to with lighting energy consumption increases?

Why do I ask?
The resistance load of the bike does not change with engine power.  However, its current usage can change with voltage.  If the bike is using say 13 amps at 13 v system voltage, ohm's (R=E/I) law says that the resistance of the bike electrical components is 1 ohm.  Raise the voltage to 14.5 and the current will be 14.5 amps  (I= E/R).  What's your fuse rating?

The fuse is designed to melt at about 120% of its current rating due to the heat created in the fusible material.  Running the fuse close to its rating still heats the fuse metal.  The heat makes the metal softer and it becomes more susceptible to damage from vibration. Such as the what comes from the power pulses of the engine under heavy power.

If I recall correctly, fusible links are usually selected by the circuit designer to operate at about 60% of their rating, assuming some kind of air cooling around it to exchange the heat generated within.  A 15 amp main fuse shouldn't have more than about 10 amps flowing through it under normal circumstances.

I know your Boyer brandson unit draws more power than points do.  But, I've no data to know how much more.  Do you know what your total current draw through your main fuse is?

It's just a theory.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

theunrulychef

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2006, 06:58:47 AM »
Cool, thanks for the responses guys.  That's alot of good info to chomp on.

TT, now I remember another post where you talked about the fuse ratings & how they heat up.  I forgot about that one.  Also, I realize that I was using a halogen headlight at the time, so the fuse scenario sounds likely (it's the ass-u-me again ;D). It never popped while sitting still because I never revved it for minutes at a time like I would while riding.  It never did it on the highway, though, with sustained high RPM.  The difference could be like you mentioned about the air cooling of the fuse.

I don't have any info on the Boyer system.  It doesn't use the mechanical advance, and honestly doesn't really advance very much at all according to my timing light (just a few degrees). 

I believe my main is a 15 amp; been so long since I rode it, I can't remember stuff like that anymore.  I think it was blue  :D.  I never actually checked to see what the whole system was pulling at the fuse.  I think I'll do that once I put her back together, just for #$%*s & giggles.

I really appreciate these boards & all the members' collective wisdom. You guys have all really taught me quite a bit about the old bikes.  Thanks again.
-Jay in Philly

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2006, 09:44:53 AM »
I don't have any info on the Boyer system.  It doesn't use the mechanical advance, and honestly doesn't really advance very much at all according to my timing light (just a few degrees). 

If it isn't giving you 25 degrees of advance, then you probably aren't developing full power from the engine.

Also, the bike will make more power going up a hill than traveling on flatland.   So, the power pluses will be stronger going into the frame and rear tire.
Another subtlety I thought of, was the mounting arrangement of the fuse holder.  Isn't the stock mounting on rubber isolation?  If your replacement panel was hard mounted to frame, the fuses would receive more of the frame's vibration.  Also, if the rubber was old and hard, more vibration would be tranferred to the fuse, too. 

Engineering problems aren't always isolated to just one single cause.   Sometimes a bunch of things gang up to make the device or machine break in odd, seemingly unexplained ways, until you reproduce the exact same conditions. 

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

theunrulychef

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Re: Ignition Electric Theory - TwoTired?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2006, 05:10:53 AM »
If it isn't giving you 25 degrees of advance, then you probably aren't developing full power from the engine.
Yeah, I'm planning on either going back to points temporarily, or getting a dyna.  The points I had before I got the Boyer were all fubared.  I broke one of the brackets, & since nobody in Philly that I knew of had the parts, I was riding around on a homemade point for a few weeks  ::); definitely not optimal.  The Boyer at least has been better than that.

Another subtlety I thought of, was the mounting arrangement of the fuse holder.  Isn't the stock mounting on rubber isolation?  If your replacement panel was hard mounted to frame, the fuses would receive more of the frame's vibration.  Also, if the rubber was old and hard, more vibration would be transferred to the fuse, too.
Good point.  The block is mounted on a piece of hard plastic, directly to the frame.  When I put everything back together, I'll do some sort of rubber mount.

Engineering problems aren't always isolated to just one single cause.   Sometimes a bunch of things gang up to make the device or machine break in odd, seemingly unexplained ways, until you reproduce the exact same conditions. 
Definitely not a stranger to that - I was a mechanic in training at Ford  ;D.  I think you've answered my main question though - the electrical system doesn't really know that the engine is under load.  Like you said, it's most likely a multitude of small problems coming together. 

Thanks again for your help.
-Jay in Philly