Topic: Need to get rid of this electrical gremlin

[conseann3ry]

Hey everyone, have lurked around the site for a little but have always been able to answer my questions by searching.  I now have an electrical gremlin that I need help on but want to make sure it isn't anything else.

So this problem only happens when the bike is warm, never when it is running.  Bike always starts up when cold, but if I've rode it and stopped for a little then go to ride home it won't start for a long time.  Usually I have to get a ride, go pick it up with my truck then when I get back and offload it then it will start right up.  In an effort to get it to start I will be shaking all the wires, flipping switches, etc and before it actually starts up I will get a big explosion or two while flipping the run switch around.

It used to be associated with the oil light not working as well, although since I took all the connections apart and cleaned them and this doesn't happen anymore.

It's a real #$%* to diagnose because it's consistently infrequent.

I have decided that I hate all the connectors and am going to solder each connection.  So my first question is what is the best way to do this?  Should I use the shrink tubing around each or does someone have a better idea?  Is this even a good idea or is it just going to cause me trouble in the future?

Any possibility it's the coils?  I'm not sure how coils fail but I assume it isn't them because at least one would be firing.

Anyways, to me it sounds like just a electrical connection, but the whole warm thing confuses me.

[cookindaddy]

Interesting. So it never quits under power, but if you shut it off and leave it it will refuse to start until it cools down completely to cold? Then it starts with no problem?

Of course, you are far from the shop when this happens and it may be dark by then and hard to troubleshoot.

If I were you, I would be carrying a multimeter and a flashlight when I go riding. It would be very interesting to check the coil primaries when it will not start.

The warm thing confuses me also. If something is going to fail when it is warm, it should do so while you are running it or not I would think.

I would not be doing drastic things like wholesale soldering everything, particularly if you already done a through check of the connections like they are tight and clean?

Let's see what the other's chime in with.

Welcome to the board by the way!

[conseann3ry]

Update!
Well, I went out to the garage, she started up as usual.  Warmed her up, was about to go on a ride, but decided to shut turn her off.  As luck would have it she didn't start up again.

It was a race against time before the bike fixed itself.  Ran around like a crackhead looking for my multimeter.  Couldn't find it but found my test light, no spark, no power to coils, no power from Dyna..etc.  Took off the kill switch and BAM, power going to, none coming out.

My theory is that once there was power going through it the energy made it stick open.  After the bike is turned off the contacts had expanded enough to not make contact until it got cold enough to shrink back.

Anyways, thank you cooking daddy for being the voice of reason against soldering everything and taking the time to respond.  Was just so fed up with it all at the time that I was getting drastic.

I'm thinking about just bypassing the switch.  I've never really used it and I can't think of any scenario where I would need it besides my clutch cable and my throttle return breaking at the exact same time.  In which case I could always just use the key.  Anyone run theirs without a kill switch or have a good reason why I shouldn't do this?

[Spanner 1]

One good reason to keep your kill switch is a stuck throttle.... not as rare as you might think and an immediate way to 'kill' the ignition without removing your right hand off the handlebar when you might just need all the control you can get when your suddenly doing 70 into a 30 mph corner  .....
About your electrical issue, I would have a careful look at your fuse block/fuses/ fuse clips and make sure the clips are shiny and gripping each fuse tightly ( common cause of heat related loss of power ), Good luck .

[phil71]

The junction for everything is behind the headlight... Does the lamp stay on in daytime, and if you can kill the headlamp, do these problems go away? If so, that heat could be make/breaking a dodgey contact in there. The control is so simple that heat cant possibly get at it... So it's got to be somewhere else. This is a head scratcher for sure

[conseann3ry]

Hey guys, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but the kill switch is definitely where the power was being lost.  The test light can't lie.

How that was affected by heat and running it is still a mystery to me.  I figure there's a little bit of heat going through wire itself but who knows.  It still doesn't completely make sense to me but that's how it was.

Spanner, what about just pulling in the clutch.  Although an exploding engine could be just as dangerous.  I've decided it's important enough to replace though, if only for that reason.

Thank you everyone for your input.

[Spanner 1]

If ya pull-in the clutch ( stuck throttle ) the RPM's will go thru' the roof before you can move your right hand to turn off the ignition switch, happened to a member here, fried his motor.
Your right, test light can't lie  .... I presume you mean with the kill switch 'off ' you have normal voltage ?, and when  kill switch 'on' voltage drops ?......if that's the case, a big pointer to the fuseholder... it's not so much a problem when your bike is hot as when your fuseholder is hot ( the two will co-incide ! ).......

[Spanner 1]

OH wait !!!... just realised you have a Dyna ignition... it's one of their failures to quit when the bike is hot, apparently the 'trigger' units that replaced the points fail when hot and restore when cooled-off, so I've read on this Forum

[cookindaddy]

conseann3ry - sounds like you are making progress!

It is not such a big deal to open up the right grip and the kill switch to see what is going on, clean it and reassemble. I would plan to do this on a bench since there are some small parts that will fall to the ground and get lost if you try to do this on the bike. The hardest part is removing the throttle cables but if you haven't done that, you can clean and lube them and everything will work better when you are done.

If the kill switch (or the fuse block as someone suggested) is getting so hot because of bad connections and if you fix this, you will have a better preforming bike (not just that it will not cut out)

[mrbreeze]

If you wanna go making alterations to your electrical system.....you really had better study the original wiring diagram and UNDERSTAND IT!!! When you really know how it works...it is usually quite simple to do all kinds of improvements that won't mess stuff up.

[conseann3ry]

It is not such a big deal to open up the right grip and the kill switch to see what is going on, clean it and reassemble. I would plan to do this on a bench since there are some small parts that will fall to the ground and get lost if you try to do this on the bike. The hardest part is removing the throttle cables but if you haven't done that, you can clean and lube them and everything will work better when you are done.

If the kill switch (or the fuse block as someone suggested) is getting so hot because of bad connections and if you fix this, you will have a better preforming bike (not just that it will not cut out)

I did just that.   Good advice about doing it on the bench, however, I did this before I read your comment.  I setup a towel below and didn't remove the throttle cables.  There were quite a lot of small parts and I'll probably do it your way when/if the next time comes around.  The contacts were black and there was a little bit of strange goo.  I'm not even sure how it was working at all.  Sprayed some carb cleaner and used a paperclip to pick out all the goo then cleaned the contacts up with some fine sand paper and put it back together.  You're right, bike started up and I could just tell it was running much stronger.

This was literally the last electrical connection on the bike I hadn't taken apart and cleaned.  Hopefully that will be the end of any electrical issues for a while.

Mr Breeze.  I have a fairly good grasp of the electrical system, I know how to read the charts and chase the power around, this problem just fixed itself before I could ever diagnose for about half a year.  That's why I was trying to figure it out based on symptoms alone.

Spanner, good to know about the Dyna issues.  Hasn't hit me yet but will keep that in mind.  By the test light can't lie I meant that I was getting power to the input on the kill switch and there was absolutely none coming out when it was set at run.  The fuseholder is a good suggestion, while that wasn't the issue this time I have had that issue in the past when I first got the bike.

[Spanner 1]

Glad you got it sorted, good luck for the riding season

[Spades]

I had this problem as well. I did take the route of removing the switch and soldering the connection together inside the switch. I have to be honest, it scares me because I can't kill the motor if I ever needed to. My problem was a lot like yours so that is likely the issue.

Come to think of it I should follow my own advice but .. Gnarly Charlie has some of these and would probably sell you one cheap. Get in touch with him.  Here's his sale thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82521.0

Get in touch with him and see if he can send you a working one.

Good Luck!

[thrutheframe]

I'm thinking about just bypassing the switch.  I've never really used it and I can't think of any scenario where I would need it besides my clutch cable and my throttle return breaking at the exact same time.  In which case I could always just use the key.  Anyone run theirs without a kill switch or have a good reason why I shouldn't do this?

Please please please do not remove your kill switch.  Mine has saved my arse a hundred times on a dozen different bikes.  The kill switch is your absolute first and last line of defense against a runaway motor.  Removing it is a huge safety issue.

Carry on.