Author Topic: 78 CB550 Carb Sync  (Read 7517 times)

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Offline richison

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78 CB550 Carb Sync
« on: May 14, 2011, 02:04:22 PM »
Recently I rebuilt my top end. Resurfaced head, new valve guides, rings and of course gaskets and seals. My valves are set at .004 exhaust and .003 intake. I have good spark in all 4. My timing seems to be dead nuts on 1/4 and firing slightly early on 2/3 (I'm using a clip and 12v test lamp) I cant seem to get 2/3 perfect on the timing but I believe they are very close. It all went well and the only thing wrong was a small "cough" in #2, backfiring slightly during the ride.

I was told to sync the carbs and it would help.

I am hoping to clarify a few things about syncing my carbs. I am using a vacuum manometer and taking my readings at 2000 RPMs.

#2 throttle slide is unadjustable and is used as the "mark" to adjust all other cylinders to. Is this correct?

 When making my slide adjustment on the other cylinders, the vacuum reading on #2 moves as well. I seem to be "chasing" the adustment back and forth. I think I have them all close to the same reading but my idle wont stay consistent long enough to get a really good solid reading.

#2 was (during the adjustment) and still is (after the adjustment) "coughing".

any thoughts?



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Offline mitch500

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2011, 03:03:25 PM »
the honda service manual i have says inlet to 0.05mm and exhaust to 0.08mm for the tappet adjustments.

EDIT..
i was thinking in metric you are clearly using imperial. in that case it should be inlet-0.002in exhaust-0.003in
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 03:55:07 PM by mitch500 »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2011, 03:46:55 PM »
I am hoping to clarify a few things about syncing my carbs. I am using a vacuum manometer and taking my readings at 2000 RPMs.
RPM too high, SB 1000-1100 RPM.

#2 throttle slide is un-adjustable and is used as the "mark" to adjust all other cylinders to. Is this correct?
Yes

When making my slide adjustment on the other cylinders, the vacuum reading on #2 moves as well. I seem to be "chasing" the adustment back and forth. I think I have them all close to the same reading but my idle wont stay consistent long enough to get a really good solid reading.
Doesn't matter what #2 changes to.  Just make the others the same as it.  Restore the idle speed as needed with the big idle knob that changes all the slides in unison.

#2 was (during the adjustment) and still is (after the adjustment) "coughing".
If you can't get it to idle at 1000-1100 RPM even after balancing then something else is wrong.

If you didn't pay attention to the picture below when putting the cylinder cover back on, then you probably bent a valve, and it is unable to close fully.  I it was #2 intake valve that you bent. Then the vacuum readings are compromised, and balancing is irrelevant until the valve problem is repaired.  It would certainly explain the "spitting".

You could try a compression test to see if all cylinders are behaving the same.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline richison

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2011, 04:29:24 PM »
TT: If the tappet cover was put on crooked (dont think I did) and a I bent a valve, would I notice it while adjusting the valves? all seems well in there.

my compression with engine warm, pods off and choke and throttle wide open:
#1-140, #2-125, #3-135 #4-140.

I have less than 75 miles since the rebuild. is that enough time for rings and valves to settle in?

I rechecked point gap (.014) valve clearance and timing is now right on.

What I did notice is that my throttle cable return is different from what I see in the book. I dont seem to have an eccentric pin or a stop screw. When the throttle is fully returned, I can "force" it to return just a bit more, reducing the idle a bit more. Is this normal?
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members - G. Marx

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2011, 05:45:17 PM »
TT: If the tappet cover was put on crooked (dont think I did) and a I bent a valve, would I notice it while adjusting the valves? all seems well in there.

It is not that you put the cover on crooked.  The issue is if the adjuster ever was next to the valve stem instead of on top of it while the cylinder cover was tightened down.  The geometry forces side motion on the valve stem and bends it.  Then the valve has trouble seating.  It has nothing to do with adjusting the clearance.  The valve itself either doesn't travel far enough to close, or the valve face is crooked and no longer fits concentrically on the seat which cause a compression leak.  If the intake valve is leaking, it spits out the carbs on the compression stroke.

my compression with engine warm, pods off and choke and throttle wide open:
#1-140, #2-125, #3-135 #4-140.
Don't you think it odd that #2 is lower on compression than the others, and also spits out the intake?
If two or three drops of oil in the spark plug hole don't bring the compression up, then it has to be valves losing seal.

I have less than 75 miles since the rebuild. is that enough time for rings and valves to settle in?
Should be getting close.

What I did notice is that my throttle cable return is different from what I see in the book.
What book?  Clymer has no info on the 78's PD carbs.

I dont seem to have an eccentric pin or a stop screw. When the throttle is fully returned, I can "force" it to return just a bit more, reducing the idle a bit more. Is this normal?

All the CB550 carbs have a throttle stop screw.  Is this what you mean?  The PD carbs also have a fast idle cam and a choke cable.  You should be looking in the Honda shop manual supplements for details about the PD carbs that were stock on the CB550K in 1978.

If you have it running, do all the head pipes heat evenly?  Is #2 colder than the others?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline richison

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 06:54:10 PM »
TT: I was so careful putting that cover on. In fact, I put it on the first attempt, finger tightened the bolts and ended up taking it back off because I didn't like the way it felt. My second attempt felt great and went very smooth. I checked each lifter one by one to make sure it was lined up. But, knowing my luck, you may very well be right. I was so careful to get this rebuild right, not cutting corners.
Lets say I have a valve problem. Can I take head off and replace it without replacing the guide? Possibly?
Just and update on the carb sync: Idle has settled right down and it is running strong, but, the #2 cough is still there when she is warming up from cold.
Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.
Ron
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members - G. Marx

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 09:58:26 PM »
Did you back off the all the adjusters until they just about fell off, before cover install?  And hold them up off the valve stems with rubber bands or something?

Bent valves can take out the guide, but it's not guaranteed.  A bent valve should at least be tight in the guide, I would think.

There is a way to find out without taking the head off and wasting a head gasket.

1st do a compression check, and then check with a couple drops of oil.  Oil will seal leaky rings temporarily but won't seal a bent valve.

Probably a better check for this is a leak down test.  You bring the piston to TDC hold it there and put air pressure in the chamber.  If you can hear it leaking out the intake into the carbs, then you know there is a valve seat seal issue.

Another way, after removing the cylinder cover, is to use curtain draw cord.  Move the piston down in the #2 bore about 1/2 to 3/4 inch.    Then feed in about 10 inches of the curtain draw cord.  Next bring the piston back up to mash the cord between piston and valves.  Don't force it, we are just trying to hold the valves up in the seated position.  Lock the crank in this position. You can now remove the valve spring from the suspect valve, and check for side play in the stem.  Move the crank a few degrees if necessary to push the valve down no more than 1/8 inch.  The valve should not be sticking and move freely this amount.  If tight and difficult to move with bare fingers, you got a bent valve.

If some or all of the above tests indicate a bent valve or leaking intake valve, you will have to at least replace the valve.  And, if the new valve does not work in the guide properly or the guide is cracked, then the guide must be replaced, too.

After you have verified that the engine mechanicals are where they should be, then you should revisit the carb sync. and spark timing.

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline richison

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »
back again. . . let's say I have a bent valve ? . . . how much MORE damage can I or will I do by riding it out until winter before I tear it down again? Is it as bad as its gonna get? It runs really well and I hate to spend my summer without a bike but will if its gonna do alot more damage.
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members - G. Marx

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 01:40:47 PM »
A valve that doesn't seat leaks hot gasses on the power stroke.  This can erode both the valve and the seat.

So, you risk both running it as is.  Probably a replacement head will be the cheaper correction.

If it is spitting hot combustion gasses into the carb, you risk an induction fire/explosion when it gets bad enough.
I can't predict the probability of that, though.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duanob

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 10:29:10 AM »
You will be able to tell by pulling the valve cover off. You can see the hammer and gouge marks on top of the valve stem left by the mis-aligned tappet adjuster. I saw mine right away. What I didn't see until I started pulling valve springs was the valve guide were broken caused by bent valves. I had to get some valve guides and new stem seals and took the whole thing to a machine shop.


For installing the valve cover use this trick that TT mentioned:

« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 10:51:40 AM by Duanob »
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Offline strynboen

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Re: 78 CB550 Carb Sync
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 11:16:34 AM »
mine 78 k3 550 are also shuting.a bit in intake.can feel it in the choker..vhen pulling it.think my airfilter are vrong..it fits not as i want it..think it gives that lean mix..and gives that shoting..are 78 different in filter..
i have to carb syncre ..but vill first se if i can get the right filter.that hole in bottom of filter..element..air goes  in engine..with no filtring..have closed it ..wont have that reclycing of oil air..hace a breather filter on engine instead..
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords