Topic: Wear your helmet!

[pknopp]

 Cars are more dangerous in the rain, but that wasn't the arguement. The arguement is that it is more risky to ride in the rain but many do it anyway.
 
 I'm not so big on deciding for myself what risks I'm going to take while deciding for others what risk they can take.

[Pinhead]

I think most of you are missing Gordon's point. He's not actually arguing against the use of a helmet. He has actually stated that he fully and 100% recommends people choosing to wear a helmet. What he doesn't agree with is the government taking away yet another choice from us that has absolutely no direct bearing on the safety of others.

Your argument is that someone gets in a wreck and can't foot the bill, the taxpayers have to cover it. Do you really believe that taxes should cover this type of stuff in the first place??? Gordon is alluding to a much bigger problem than helmet laws. The government has overstepped it's boundaries so far for so long we've grown accustomed to it having it's hands in everything. That is why we're broke. Not because someone wrecked his motorcycle. But because the government felt the need to pay for peoples' lack of personal responsibility.

Do you think laws like these would have been supported back in the '40s and '50s? Of course not. They weren't even though of because people (as a whole, in general) took responsibility for their own actions and didn't expect others to take care of them.

[Skunk Stripe]

retro, from what I find, motorcycle sales in the US are not that high. Cars sales in just a few states top bike sales for the US.
This link shows that sales DROPPED in 2010 in the US.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-news/statistics/2009-motorcycle-sales-statistics.htm
This shows the sales of cars, for the last FIVE months in Maryland which is about half, in one state, what bike sales for the whole US are. Maryland is a small state.
US car sales in april were over 1 million.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/us-sales-of-fuel-efficient-cars-surged-in-april-figures-show-2278921.html
or 4 times more than 2 quarters of bike sales.
So while in other parts of the world, bikes might be much more common, in the US, autos are MUCH more dominant.
Most families here have 2 - 3 autos and no bikes.
Sorry, but in the US, the vast majority of the population considers bikes to be recreation only and thus no big deal.
So it really would be easy to ban them if people really wanted to. All it would take is simple statistics about the amount of money a bike crash can cost and the number of lives lost and poof, bikes are gone.
You might not want to believe it but look at what happened to guns in England Australia. Bikes are as needed as guns are.

[petercb750]

Oh come on skunk, now you're dragging gun laws into it, sheesh. 

Skunk, the stats I looked at yesterday, and i don't have the energy or desire to revisit them to copy and paste them, showed in the first quarter of 2011 bike sales rose by 6.5% in the US (compared to the same 1/4 last year). Pull whatever stats you want, but that was the one I read, and really, who cares, it's not that relevant to the debate. You then make comment "All it would take is simple statistics about the amount of money a bike crash can cost and the number of lives lost and poof, bikes are gone" well, maybe if helmets were mandatory in every state the costs of crashes (in injury management) and loss of lives would lessen, thus helping to avoid that sort of mentality. Maybe.
And if, as you say, motorcycles are not highly regarded in the US, are used mostly for recreation, and not a significant mode of transport, then why would any government be bothered trying to legislate them off the roads - they're not significant enough, if we are to believe your statements. There would be no votes in it for them, just a few protest votes. Anyway, I'm sure the big manufacturers would have something to say about it, up to 1m sales a year is significant to them...

Pinhead - you make some good points. I for one am quite aware that Gordon does not advocate the non-use of helmets - it's the mandatory law on helmet use he, you and others have a problem with and what this debate is about. That is understood. Some of us just don't happen to agree with that stance, and some, myself included, have no problem with being told that if we choose to ride a motorcycle then we MUST wear a helmet. No problem, it's the concession I make for being able to enjoy my old girls (not that I see it as a concession, because I would wear one anyway, but hope you see my point). I'm not going to repeat my reasons for having that opinion. 'Nuff said.
Peter.

[Retro Rocket]

Cars are more dangerous in the rain, but that wasn't the arguement. The arguement is that it is more risky to ride in the rain but many do it anyway.

WOW, it is also more risky to drive in the rain..... You can't try and disconnect your argument like that, if you have a point that is only relevant to bikes then fair enough but what you have said so far is relevant to more than just bikes....!!
If you are convinced that bikes are more dangerous then don't ride or learn to ride better....
I'm out of here, this is getting silly and pointless...

[Skunk Stripe]

So why do you think bikes are not more dangerous? The facts are there. 2 wheels are not as stable as 4. No matter how well you ride, you can still get into an accident, it does not matter if it is your fault or someone elses. If said accident happens, how likely are you to get injured? If you get hit by a car, who gets hurt more?
And this cars are more dangerous in the rain crap, really? Someone HONESTLY believes that? Sorry but that is bull#$%*e plain and simple. There is absolutely nothing that supports that claim.

So peter, I put up stats that are legitimate, you have just what you say and yet you think you are right when you can't take 1 minute to find them? My point is that if you start making laws that take away personal choice, then people are just going to figure bikes should be gone. It does not matter how well a helmet might do. The average person is not going to care and you should know that. Sorry but stupid laws get passed in your country too that make no sense. Many laws are "feel-good" or "knee-jerk" laws and poorly thought out. You can brush off the gun law link all you want but it is also valid as an example.

You may not like it but we think differently and that is just how it is. I always wear a helmet, where we differ is that I do not think it should be a mandated law, you do. I also feel that anyone without a lid is an idiot but unless they are my family, I will not tell them how to live.

[pknopp]

Cars are more dangerous in the rain, but that wasn't the arguement. The arguement is that it is more risky to ride in the rain but many do it anyway.

WOW, it is also more risky to drive in the rain..... You can't try and disconnect your argument like that, if you have a point that is only relevant to bikes then fair enough but what you have said so far is relevant to more than just bikes....!!
If you are convinced that bikes are more dangerous then don't ride or learn to ride better....
I'm out of here, this is getting silly and pointless...

 Look, I had my say and that was going to be that but it's incredible how much people will defend their butting into the decisions of others.
 
 1. It is more risky to ride in the rain. People still choose to take that risk.
 2. It is more risky to ride without a helmet. People want to tell people they can not do that.

 Bikes are more dangerous, that isn't a choice. We still decide to take that choice but some that make that choice want to tell others how far they can take that choice.
 
 Make your choices and let others make theirs.

[pknopp]

You may not like it but we think differently and that is just how it is. I always wear a helmet, where we differ is that I do not think it should be a mandated law, you do. I also feel that anyone without a lid is an idiot but unless they are my family, I will not tell them how to live.

 My sons do not have a bike (twin 20 year olds). They will on occasion come over and ride one of mine. They never get on one without a helmet. They are my bikes so I can state the rules on taking one out.
 
 I won't be able to do the same if they get their own bike. Hopefully they learn on their own from my example.

[Skunk Stripe]

P, I would do the same thing. My bike, my rules. that is a totally different story there as the person is on your property.
I make my kids wear a helmet when riding bike or skating and they see that I wear one when I ride. Teach by example.
We are in agreement on this

[wingman1946]

I agree with the choice to wear or not, but it sure is silly to have a seat belt law and no helmet law.  Seat belts should be a choice as well. However im "Safety Man"  so i wear my helmet all the time and safty jacket.

I agree with this quote that it should be a choice. I too wear my helmet but will always protect my right to free choice over the dictates of some other person or body ordering me to do it. Our free rights as citizens are slowly being taken away and some of the Darwin intellectuals don't even seem to care. Maybe if they were forced to wear helmets in their cars they would get the picture. Think how many die in auto accidents because they were not wearing a helmet !!!

[wingman1946]

The sad thing about all this is the vast amount of mis-information about helmets, even from some EMT personnel. I know an emt that hates helmets for supposedly causing more neck injuries and causing head injuries. He was good at his job but he just had no clue about helmets. Plus, his decision on lids was made in the 80s and helmets have come a LONG way since then. And yet, even then, they were still most likely to save your life than not.

I would think that the EMT would have a lot more first hand insight into the result of helmet use than the average Joe.

[Skunk Stripe]

Not really, they just see whatever the aftermath is. They do not have training to analyze an accident.

[Retro Rocket]

Bikes are more dangerous, that isn't a choice

You see, thats where all this falls down. I don't think they are more dangerous at all. Large road bikes have been my primary source of transport for 32 years, didn't even get my car license until i was 41. In that time my bikes ability to out perform most cars  in acceleration  braking and manoeuvrability have gotten me out of plenty of situations that would have been impossible in a car, actually i have been able to get out of one in particular where a car shot out of a side street and ploughed in to traffic on the Princess highway in Sydney, if i had been in a car instead i would have been in hospital along with the 3 drivers that were taken out, i saw it coming and accelerated quickly out of the way with only metres to spare.  I stay out in front of traffic as much as i can, don't sit next to trucks and ride in everyones mirrors, so i can make judgement calls on what the drivers around me are doing. I feel a little exposed, especially in winter {not unsafe} but generally i feel far more in control whilst riding than i do driving, mainly because of how manoeuvrable a bike is. Knowing the limitations of your machine goes a long way to making bikes just as safe as driving a car. I know someone who burnt to death in a car accident and another who had his neck broken in a simple accident where he slipped down under impact and his only injury was a broken neck caused by his seat belt, this will never happen to me on a bike. I ride as if everything on the road is dangerous, if i thought my bike was dangerous it would be a distraction i could do without and more than likely end me up in an accident. I love bikes for a number of reasons and i back my abilities and find them just as safe as anything else on the road....I do understand that i may not even see the idiot that could take me out but this could also happen walking down the street or driving a car or even sitting at a cafe. Ride your bike, use your brains and live long and prosper......

[pknopp]

 If bikes are no more dangerous than cars, I don't understand why you feel the pressing need to wear a helmet.

[Retro Rocket]

If bikes are no more dangerous than cars, I don't understand why you feel the pressing need to wear a helmet.

Define dangerous.? A knife is dangerous, a gun is dangerous, The sun is dangerous, i could go on for days. When its cold i would rather wear clothes and be warm, the cold is dangerous as well. I wear a helmet because common sense tells me too, same reason i wear a seat belt. I work on swinging stages, hundreds of feet off the ground and wear a harness, thats dangerous as well. All the things mentioned are dangerous if used poorly, otherwise they are all fine. If your riding skills are that poor that you feel in danger every time you ride then maybe you shouldn't go any where near bikes in the first place...Bicycle maybe.....careful, they are dangerous as well....   If motorcycles were point blank dangerous then we wouldn't have them in the first place.

[dave500]

if motorcycles werent invented yet,,then all of a sudden you had R1 and hayabusa appear those in charge would say you cant ride those on the street i think?so,,wear your helmet.

[pknopp]

If bikes are no more dangerous than cars, I don't understand why you feel the pressing need to wear a helmet.

Define dangerous.? A knife is dangerous, a gun is dangerous, The sun is dangerous, i could go on for days.

 
 And I'm going to guess that you don't take extra precautions against any of them? Do you wear a glove when you use a knife as opposed to a spoon?
 
 Run around with a bullet proof vest? I would hope (though I wouldn't force you), that you use sunscreen.
 
 

When its cold i would rather wear clothes and be warm, the cold is dangerous as well. I wear a helmet because common sense tells me too, same reason i wear a seat belt. I work on swinging stages, hundreds of feet off the ground and wear a harness, thats dangerous as well. All the things mentioned are dangerous if used poorly, otherwise they are all fine. If your riding skills are that poor that you feel in danger every time you ride then maybe you shouldn't go any where near bikes in the first place...Bicycle maybe.....careful, they are dangerous as well....   If motorcycles were point blank dangerous then we wouldn't have them in the first place.

 
 Point blank doesn't equal more dangerous. Nobody that was argueing anything except something they really couldn't defend would argue that a motorcycle isn't more dangerous than a car.

[Gordon]

And I'm going to guess that you don't take extra precautions against any of them? Do you wear a glove when you use a knife as opposed to a spoon?
 
 Run around with a bullet proof vest? I would hope (though I wouldn't force you), that you use sunscreen.

That's what those who advocate helmet laws don't appear to understand or make a connection to.  Laws that govern your personal choices that have no effect on the safety or well-being of anybody but yourself.  It doesn't matter if it's helmet laws, or legislated eating habits, or forced sunscreen use, or mandatory colonoscopies.  The list could go on and on when it comes to choices that could be legislated to protect us from ourselves.  I guarantee that eating too much fat and sugar causes a far greater financial burden on society than non-helmet-wearers do. 

If telling people that they are required to wear a helmet on a motorcycle is such a good thing for the rider and for society, then why wouldn't it be an infinitely greater thing to require all people to eat a healthy diet? 

Also, I hate to get drawn into this strange side-debate about whether or not riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car, but I have one question, Mick.  And this is just something I'm curious about and not an argument for either side of the topic.  If you don't think that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car then why do you advocate wearing protective gear while riding one?  Or, conversely, why don't you advocate wearing the same protective equipment while driving a car if it's just as dangerous as riding a motorcycle? 

[Pinhead]

Also, I hate to get drawn into this strange side-debate about whether or not riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car, but I have one question, Mick.  And this is just something I'm curious about and not an argument for either side of the topic.  If you don't think that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car then why do you advocate wearing protective gear while riding one?  Or, conversely, why don't you advocate wearing the same protective equipment while driving a car if it's just as dangerous as riding a motorcycle? 

I'd say it's no more dangerous to ride a motorcycle than a car... But much more dangerous to crash one. 

[scrapvalue]

Also, I hate to get drawn into this strange side-debate about whether or not riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car, but I have one question, Mick.  And this is just something I'm curious about and not an argument for either side of the topic.  If you don't think that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car then why do you advocate wearing protective gear while riding one?  Or, conversely, why don't you advocate wearing the same protective equipment
while driving a car if it's just as dangerous as riding a motorcycle? 

I'd say it's no more dangerous to ride a motorcycle than a car... But much more dangerous to crash one. 

Riding a car is much more dangerous.
There are no foot pegs and unless there is a roof rack, the only thing to hold on to is the windshield wipers.
Although, if you get someone to slam the doors on your hands, you should be able to stay on with no problem.

[Retro Rocket]

Also, I hate to get drawn into this strange side-debate about whether or not riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car, but I have one question, Mick.  And this is just something I'm curious about and not an argument for either side of the topic.  If you don't think that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car then why do you advocate wearing protective gear while riding one?  Or, conversely, why don't you advocate wearing the same protective equipment while driving a car if it's just as dangerous as riding a motorcycle?

Horses for courses and because it is common sense, i take precautions in a car as well, just different ones.  Its just like insurance mate, you may never need it but it helps if its there when you do. I don't consider any inanimate object dangerous by itself , they become dangerous when used by people and used less than competently. I have had 2 car accidents and 1 bike accident, none were my fault , does that make my car twice as dangerous  ?......

I think generally, what one considers dangerous is ones opinion and not necessarily what someone else would consider dangerous.....

[scrapvalue]

Race car drivers wear helmets.
So it only makes sense to wear one when you drive your car.
Heck, I even wear a helmet when I am coloring.

[Gordon]

Heck, I even wear a helmet when I am coloring.

Just remember not to eat the crayons.  They don't taste as good as they look.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I am the cheif factotum dictator of everything and I hereby decree that everything fun is banned.

There, ya happy now?!?!?! 

[Gordon]

I am the cheif factotum dictator of everything and I hereby decree that everything fun is banned.

There, ya happy now?!?!?! 

Going to work is FUN!!!!